New business question for you guys

[Andrew Sproull]

Tried the search function but it wasn't working and so I'm just going to ask you guys. I was just approached about shooting high end garage floors for a business that does them (the shots will have cars in them, thats why I thought I would ask here). I have a good idea what I will be charging for the shoot and for processing work on the photos. What I need help on is that the photos will be used for brochures, some advertising, and their website. So I need a little guidance on what the rate for licensing the photos to him for that use would be,

Any and all advice will be taken into consideration and greatly appreciated. Thanks in adavance.

[Dennis Murray]

Pick up a copy of Fotoquote.

[Andrew Sproull]

Pick up a copy of Fotoquote.
lol I looked into that, it cost $140 and you guys are free :D

[John Thawley]

This is an edit to my original post:

First, the Search DOES work. Try a search on Fotoquote. :)

Second, if you're not going to profit $140 on this job... do us all a favor and leave the work to someone who actually does this for a living.

Third, pick up a copy of FotoQuote

[Andrew Sproull]

This is an edit to my original post:

First, the Search DOES work. Try a search on Fotoquote. :)

Second, if you're not going to profit $140 on this job... do us all a favor and leave the work to someone who actually does this for a living.

Third, pick up a copy of FotoQuote
It wasn't working at the time I was searching for stuff, kept giving me the message saying that an error report was sent to the admin.

I will be profiting more than 140 off of this job, but as a college student i try to conserve funds where i can, so i thought i'd as you guys for help:o

[Daniel Buck]

Second, if you're not going to profit $140 on this job... do us all a favor and leave the work to someone who actually does this for a living.
to be completely honest and up front, I would MUCH rather trust the opinions and figures from fellow photographers, than a piece of software.

"do us all a favor and leave the work to someone who actually does this for a living" sounds pretty rude to me. Just because you have been doing this for a long time and are already in the field and know what to charge, you think others shouldn't? After all, this IS the "business discussion" section. If we don't want to answer questions about business, then this section shouldn't be here. If someone asks me a question about costs or anything else that I don't want to discuss (in my field, not photography), I just don't say anything, or tell them I'd rather not discuss it. I don't put them down and say they should leave the job to those who do it for a living.

I don't know what it is about photography, but it seems that photographers really don't like discussing their rates! In my field, it's no big deal to talk about rates and things, I guess I'm just used to that rather than photographers.

I'm not trying to be rude to you, but I think your comment came off a bit harsh. or maybe I mis-read it.

:confused:

[Jim Sykes]

Daniel, I think the heart of the matter lies with this statement:

lol I looked into that, it cost $140 and you guys are free :D

Its not that we dont like to discuss pricing if we think it will benefit us all, its that too many people these days have that above attitude and it starts to wear VERY thin after awhile.

The first thing I did when I knew I was going to be charging for work was buy FotoQuote. I didnt have any money. I was living with my parents because I couldnt afford a place of my own. The beggar on the street was making more money than I was at the time, but I found the money anyway.

Why? Because it was an important part of doing the job properly. It was a tool not unlike your camera or your lens. Something that was important to being able to go into this business.

If you dont want to buy FQ, then there are other options that cost less, such as books and other things. Hell, there are even online calculators that are free if you actually search for them.

But the bottom line is why should those of us that DID pay for FQ simply pass along all the info to those that are too cheap to buy it themselves or dont feel like investing in their businesses.

Sure, there is always stuff to be learned from those more experienced. I've benefited from it myself on many occasions and I dont mind giving advice as well from my limited experience. But I do feel a little upset when people come on and and dont search, dont try to find the answers on their own, dont invest in what will help them and still want the answers handed to them.

Ever heard the expression "if you give a man a fish you can feed him for a day, but if you teach him to fish you can feed him for a lifetime."

Same thing here. We can sit here and say he should charge $XXXX.00 and he'll have his answer for this job. But if we point him in the right direction and encourage him to buy things like FotoQuote, then he'll be able to learn how to price things on his own and be able to do it again the next time a job comes up that isnt the exact same thing as this.

If after all the searching and research then questions still arise, or its something that isnt so plain as getting the answers off FQ, then asking questions and getting help from others is warranted and I dont think anyone here would have an issue helping out. But beyond that, I dont see a problem with not wanting to share info that I have worked hard to find and paid for out of my own pocket.

Here is a bit of advice though, I would not worry about pricing for rates plus usages, on something like an assignment like this, figure the usages into a good day rate and call it a day. These images will have no use to you after this shoot, might as well just roll it all up into a day rate, collect and let them go on their way and use the images as they need to. Make it attractive to them to pay a bit more.

Say work for $1500/day and they get one usage and will have to pay for each additional usage they want. Or for a bit more, charge $2000/day and throw in full usage as, like I said before, the images will have no use to you after this one specific shoot.

This isnt like stock photography where usage fees are the biggest issue. Here they are paying you for a specific shoot to produce images solely for their use. Charging a good day rate and letting them have the results is not unheard of and will be a lot easier on them in the long run as they dont have to constantly worry about coming back to you for permission and usage fees.

[Daniel Buck]

I guess it's different in my industry. If I need to know how much to charge for something (say, something that I don't usually do and don't have pricing experience in) I just ask someone and I'll usually get a fairly straight up answer. I guess it works different with photography. I hope I haven't made to much of a stink :)

[John Thawley]

to be completely honest and up front, I would MUCH rather trust the opinions and figures from fellow photographers, than a piece of software.

"do us all a favor and leave the work to someone who actually does this for a living" sounds pretty rude to me. Just because you have been doing this for a long time and are already in the field and know what to charge, you think others shouldn't? After all, this IS the "business discussion" section. If we don't want to answer questions about business, then this section shouldn't be here. If someone asks me a question about costs or anything else that I don't want to discuss (in my field, not photography), I just don't say anything, or tell them I'd rather not discuss it. I don't put them down and say they should leave the job to those who do it for a living.

I don't know what it is about photography, but it seems that photographers really don't like discussing their rates! In my field, it's no big deal to talk about rates and things, I guess I'm just used to that rather than photographers.

I'm not trying to be rude to you, but I think your comment came off a bit harsh. or maybe I mis-read it.

:confused:

Daniel: You're correct... this is the BUSINESS section... not the HOBBY section.

I originally posted "Buy FotoQuote".... but after reading "why, when I can find out from you guys for free..." I took offense. So you see, my response wasn't to the original question... it was to the "why should I spend $140 when I can get it from you guys for free." Let's keep things in context.

Whether I know the prices or not, I use FotoQuote... I use it every time, every quote. And, it has made me far more than what it cost me. In fact, it paid for itself three times over the first time I used it. The numbers are compiled via a lot of history. And... you don't just get a "number" you get broad view of three "ranges" of pricing... a low range, a medium range and a high range. You decided where you're level of work fits and where you think your potential client fits. The first quote I used it on I was mentally prepared to guestimate $1250 for a full page 1 time use. The low side of the medium range was $1550... the high side of the high range was $2250. The numbers were derived from a metric that described the use (advertising) the media (magazine) the circulation, and the size of the image as it would appear on the page. So... it's quite involved and quite fair in it's calculation. Bottom line... I made and extra $300. And.. the client actually came back seeking three one-time uses in three seperate publications. Hence, I made and additional $1200 over what I would have guestimated.

Either way, if you interpret my "reality" as rude, imagine how I interpret people continually trying to (unfairly) take food out of my sons mouth.

Unfortunately, this industry is crumbling on more than one front. God forbid we actually stand up and have a backbone.

So, should we pass out copies of CS3 while we're at it? Should we let eveyrone use a nice shot of your Mustang to dress-up the web page promoting their bump-shop?

Once again, dress for the job you want, not the job you have.

Lastly, poor college student card doesn't play well with me. When you were too poor to go to college, finding sympathy for someone in college doesn't come easy.

Oh... I guess while I'm being brutally honest about this... I'm the guy PAYING for the resource where we're having this discussion.

Fair is fair and limits are limits.

JT

[Daniel Buck]

Whether I know the prices or not, I use FotoQuote... I use it every time, every quote. And, it has made me far more than what it cost me. I was not aware that FotoQuote was actuall worth buying. I have heard of it a few times, but didn't know it was a be-all end-all solution. Sounds like it's worth the price!

So, should we pass out copies of CS3 while we're at it? Should we let eveyrone use a nice shot of your Mustang to dress-up the web page promoting their bump-shop? My CG website has tutorials that show how I do some things (but it's horribly out of date now). Just because someone knows how to do something, or what to charge, doesn't mean they will be good at it! I don't mind showing techniques, because it takes more than knowledge to make a good artist. My willingness to show how I do things was partially how I landed a good job on my first attempt! (which Is where I'm still working) I guess I'm still not in the loop about photography business, I'm sorry if I have offended you or anyone else. I should probably just keep to my own business when we are talking about photography business.

[Chris Clark]

I'm going to have to chime in on this little discussion as well.

As a relative "new" guy to this business, I am usually the first one asking questions around here, and I usually try to help out when I can. And Lord knows, I WILL be asking more questions as time goes on.

BUT, FotoQuote is a tool required for our business. Period. Just like your camera, lenses, CF cards, Photoshop, Laptop, etc... It is another tool. $140 IS alot of money for a piece of software when you are just starting out, I will admit to that. But I scrounged up the cash for that jsut like my L-glass, and my new body, and my soon to be new Laptop. I had to have it. It's a tool.

Basically what the OP is asking to do is borrow what we have paid for. Can I borrow your 500 f4L this weekend? No? Howabout sending me a copy of CS3, it's just too steep for my budget. It's the same thing.

Does FotoQuote cover everything? Nope. If I want to know how much to charge for a 1/4 page image in a brochure thats has a 5000 print run it will have an answer. If I am ever lucky enough(or good enough) to have a race team request that I shoot an event, well FotoQuote might not be so good for that, at least what I have seen. Thats when I will come bug you guys.;)

Sack up and find the money to buy another tool. You won't be sorry.

-chris

[Jacob Leveton]

My opinion on this will probably be discredited by someone... but...

I don't have FotoQuote. I've come to understand how licensing works, and the approximate amount of money that I should be charging for shoots. However, my biggest hurdle has been working with people who think that a photo and it's associated useage rights are worth what you tell them they are worth.

I've spent hours (literally) with clients trying to educate them on how licensing works, and why they need to pay more money if they want to use it in more places. To me, it's not worth it. I guess that's part of why I have a day job, so I don't have to try and negotiate and educate people on intellectual and creative property and how a value is attached to them.

Sure, some of you will say that someone who won't pay the 'market rate' isn't worth working for. Clients who "don't get it" aren't worth working for. However, when it comes to making a sale and cashing in a pay check at the bank and paying my bills, part of me tends to buckle just a little bit and "dumb down" my price structure so that I can cover myself.

Call me a low-baller. I'd call it pricing the job to the clientele.

[John Thawley]

I was not aware that FotoQuote was actuall worth buying. I have heard of it a few times, but didn't know it was a be-all end-all solution. Sounds like it's worth the price!

My CG website has tutorials that show how I do some things (but it's horribly out of date now). Just because someone knows how to do something, or what to charge, doesn't mean they will be good at it! I don't mind showing techniques, because it takes more than knowledge to make a good artist. My willingness to show how I do things was partially how I landed a good job on my first attempt! (which Is where I'm still working) I guess I'm still not in the loop about photography business, I'm sorry if I have offended you or anyone else. I should probably just keep to my own business when we are talking about photography business.

Not a problem at all, Daniel. Likewise, I think this site speaks volumes toward my willingness to help and share knowledge. Those that know me "on the job" have often suggested that perhaps I share "too much."

[Andrew Sproull]

I just wanted to clear up, I did not mean for my post to offend anyone on here, it was mean in a joking fashion. I will buy foto quote if I have to, and i was not looking for you guys to give me a definitive answer but just a little guidance in which direction to go with it. Again, I apologize for my comment it was not meant to be taken how it was.

[Morgan J Segal]

However, when it comes to making a sale and cashing in a pay check at the bank and paying my bills, part of me tends to buckle just a little bit and "dumb down" my price structure so that I can cover myself.

Call me a low-baller. I'd call it pricing the job to the clientele.

But you have a day job, so you should not have to do jobs at lower rates just to pay the bills


There, you've been discredited

[Morgan J Segal]

I think Photoquote is a bit overrated. I bought it, and it's not bad, but IMO it really does not offer enough options to accurately price. So far, I feel like I may have wasted my money on it. I could get the same (better) results from going to Getty images or some other stock agency's website (for free) to get a price. The stock agency asks much more detailed questions than FQ and will give you more accurate results, plus you get the leverage of telling your client what they would pay from a stock agency.

From what I can tell, FQ is not so good at pricing assignment work, it seems to give the same price for assignment as it does for stock :confused:

[John Thawley]

My opinion on this will probably be discredited by someone... but...

I don't have FotoQuote. I've come to understand how licensing works, and the approximate amount of money that I should be charging for shoots. However, my biggest hurdle has been working with people who think that a photo and it's associated useage rights are worth what you tell them they are worth.

I've spent hours (literally) with clients trying to educate them on how licensing works, and why they need to pay more money if they want to use it in more places. To me, it's not worth it. I guess that's part of why I have a day job, so I don't have to try and negotiate and educate people on intellectual and creative property and how a value is attached to them.

Sure, some of you will say that someone who won't pay the 'market rate' isn't worth working for. Clients who "don't get it" aren't worth working for. However, when it comes to making a sale and cashing in a pay check at the bank and paying my bills, part of me tends to buckle just a little bit and "dumb down" my price structure so that I can cover myself.

Call me a low-baller. I'd call it pricing the job to the clientele.

Lowballer. :D

Seriously, though, you're admitting that you aer only able to compete by providing a lower price. While you may choose not to bother educating your client, someone else will. If your only competitive edge is price, remember that one day your "edge" will be undercut by someone willing to go lower than you. And... why not? Afterall, you've educated your customer to think that way... it was YOU that told them a low price is the way to go. So, you're only contributing to your own ultimate demise.

The way to keep and build a clientele is through quality, good service and fair pricing. A "good" customer understands you need make a profit and run your business accordingly. As long as you provide them with the added value of quality and service, they'll happily pay a fair price.

JT

[John Thawley]

I just wanted to clear up, I did not mean for my post to offend anyone on here, it was mean in a joking fashion. I will buy foto quote if I have to, and i was not looking for you guys to give me a definitive answer but just a little guidance in which direction to go with it. Again, I apologize for my comment it was not meant to be taken how it was.

Don't worry about it. I think you're getting a good answer to your question and then some. I also think others are gaining a little insight from the conversation too.

JT

[Jim Sykes]

I just wanted to clear up, I did not mean for my post to offend anyone on here, it was mean in a joking fashion. I will buy foto quote if I have to, and i was not looking for you guys to give me a definitive answer but just a little guidance in which direction to go with it. Again, I apologize for my comment it was not meant to be taken how it was.

I cant tell by your post, but if you read my entire first post you'll see some free advice in it.;)

As for how beneficial FQ is, it depends on how you do your work and pricing and how much you know. I find it extremely useful and I like it much better than getting a single price from someone like Getty because it gives you a real life range of pricing that actual photographers have charged and supplied the program. If you limit yourself to only what a stock agency says, you limit your ability to really understand the pricing behind it and what acceptable ranges are.

Also, I have the full Fotobiz version and in that there are tips on how to negotiate, how to figure out some pricing that doesnt have specific pricing. I dont know if the standalone FQ has that too, but I find that helpful in some situations.

The more I do it though, the less I need to use it, but I do get the strange request every now and then and to know a range of what is actually charged for a usage is helpful.

Plus, you have the magazine database as well which till tell you the circulation for most mags out there so you can really get a better idea of pricing when you know an ad is going into, say, Hot Rod. I can know that their circulation is over 800,000 and that a full page full color ad costs $58,000. That helps a lot when the client is arguing that your $2000 quote is too high and only want to pay you $500. You know that they are paying big time for the ad and that your $2k quote is quite reasonable considering the prices they're paying.

And the reason its often recommended is that for someone that doesnt have a lot of experience, it has a ton of what they need in it and will help them understand how much stuff should run.

[Jeff Boerio]

Not a problem at all, Daniel. Likewise, I think this site speaks volumes toward my willingness to help and share knowledge. Those that know me "on the job" have often suggested that perhaps I share "too much."

Jimmy will never let me hear the end of this for saying this, and I don't want to come across as a Disciple of John Thawley, but here I go again. JT is very willing to share. At Long Beach, I was shooting from a location towards the end of the ALMS race. I already had what I wanted from the event and I was just trying some new things. But I wasn't fully thinking about where I was. "How's the port-a-potty in your background," I hear. JT was walking past me. He didn't have to say anything, but he did.

I'm sure he doesn't give away ALL his secrets, but he's sure willing to help. And I also like that he doesn't sugarcoat things. If you're off, you're off and he'll tell you. If you're on, you're on and he'll tell you that, too.

The other side of this is that business is business, and I've generally found that talking $$$ is generally taboo. Not just here, but everywhere. If you have a day job, how often do you ask how much the co-worker next to you is making? It doesn't happen where I work!

Jeff

[Andrew Sproull]

Thanks again for the help, like I said, just looking for a little direction in this situation so I can make my own educated decision. I'll think more into getting a copy of FQ, but for now I will probably take Jim's advice and when I talk to the client next tell him for X amount I can shoot the pictures and then pay for each individual usage or Y amount and get full usage