Help on a quoting situation

[Erik Anderson]

Short Version:
I shot a charity event last year for a local businessman. In return for images to be used in a magazine article, I was the 'official photographer' and advertised as such in the 'goodie bags' that the participants received. Both prior to and after the event I was to be included in advertisements direct to the attendees, however, I never saw proof of that and when I inquired, he never gave a straight answer.

Getting a written agreement with this guy was like nailing Jello to a tree. During the event, I saw his true colors (tending towards violent outbursts when things aren't going his way, etc). Although this is a good sized event, and puts me in touch with my target market, I don't like the guy much. However, he runs an event which puts me in front of quite a few of possible new clients. My friend who shot the event with me, told me he'd thump me if I ever went back to work for him! :D

Question:
A contact from his office asked for use of some of my images in advertising for this years event. They asked for roughly 50-75 images to chose from. I'm planning on quoting whatever Fotoquote tells me for their poster/magazine advertisments for the actual number of images that they end up using for specific usages. Should I do anything different?

I'll have to say I do have a small concern of him trying to smear my name and/or threaten legal action to try and get the photos. I don't think there is much of a leg to stand on and I do recognize that I have something of value to him at this point.

Has anyone been is a similar situation?

[John Thawley]

Take the high road... the view is much better from up there.

Quote the work... be sure to indicate use rights clearly and SPECIFICLY with the note than any use not specified is in violation and will be invoiced accordingly. (don't threaten with the triple rate ... that I just KNOW someone is going to jump on here and suggest) - Be sure to indicate use is NON-Transferable.

Finally, be specific about the terms. No ticky... no washy. DO NOT release a single image without payment.

Be calm, be business-like and be firm. There's nothing to get upset or nasty about. Don't refer back to last year's broken promises. Stay focused on the job at hand. Show them a selection... lo-res and watermark the be-jesus out of them. Outline the terms of the agreement and the terms of payment.

Just don't go off on last year. It goes nowhere. And don't barter for promises. Stay cool... it's not personal... it's business.

Then leave the gun and take the canoli.

JT

[Erik Anderson]

Take the high road... the view is much better from up there.

Quote the work... be sure to indicate use rights clearly and SPECIFICALLY with the note than any use not specified is in violation and will be invoiced accordingly. (don't threaten with the triple rate ... that I just KNOW someone is going to jump on here and suggest) - Be sure to indicate use is NON-Transferable.

Finally, be specific about the terms. No ticky... no washy. DO NOT release a single image without payment.

Be calm, be business-like and be firm. There's nothing to get upset or nasty about. Don't refer back to last year's broken promises. Stay focused on the job at hand. Show them a selection... lo-res and watermark the be-jesus out of them. Outline the terms of the agreement and the terms of payment.

Then leave the gun and take the cannoli.

JT

The thought of upping the rate did pass through my mind, but I quickly stashed that in the trash along with discussing anything about last year. You answered my next question which was not to release any images w/o payment.

On a side note, as I'm playing the conversation over in my head, I didn't catch one comment: 'We tried using the images off the web, but they aren't cutting it.' Gee, you mean 640x480 images watermarked through the middle won't work for your posters? . There was also a distinct pause in the conversation when I mentioned that I'd get them a quotation.

I did realize one mistake that I made last year. I sent them 50-75 high resolution images from last year on CD for them to chose for the article. Thankfully, for me, they can't find it (which is what prompted the call, I assume). I'm sure if they still had it, they would have used them without permission and stiffed me. I'm guessing that I should have put them on the web and had them chose specific images? Pardon my ignorance, but how is that typically handled?

I agree that there is nothing to be gained by digging up the past and will not do that. Thanks for the great advice JT. I'll keep everyone apprised of how it goes.

[Todd Corzett]

I'm guessing that I should have put them on the web and had them chose specific images? Pardon my ignorance, but how is that typically handled?
Full-res or not, via web or CD, just make sure to watermark the images (and something that basically distroys the file's use for anything other than mock-up). If they aren't paying for the 50-75 images as part of something else (like event coverage), don't even give them the chance to stiff you. If they want a reason why you don't send non-watermarked images just let them know the file(s) they choose will need some basic processing (RAW conversion, etc.) prior to the final and that the image(s) they select will be delivered (when payment is made).

If you make a semi-transparent watermark they should still be able to do the mock-up with your files without problems, then just replace the watermarked layer with the one they buy.

I've sent what I thought were going to be sample images to people that they turn around and use for the final print. In my case it was OK (8 images for a 1 page would was OK from the samples), but I was shocked when they didn't at least want the full-res JPG images. At this point, everyting that isn't paid for gets a watermark (even low-res samples).

-Todd...

[Erik Anderson]

Here's my typical watermark. For their proofing purposes, I'd make the files 800x600, 10 on quality, and probably a less transparent watermark.

http://www.erikandersondesigns.com/images/2007/062407-SoulBros/ProMod/0513-Joseph/images/DSC_4664.JPG

[Erik Anderson]

A few emails have passed back and forth and here's the update:

I sent them a quotation for the advertising usage and they've come back saying they can't pay that due to the fact that it's a charity event. I'd love to help the charity, but based on this guys history and inability to keep commitments and promises, I'm hesitant to do anything not involving cash up front.

I briefly thought about trading out advertising in the magazine and/or at the event, but think that I'd again get screwed. Thoughts?

[Jacob Leveton]

Ask them for a counter offer. Charity or not, there's costs associated with it. They approached you, their "good intentions" via charity do not necessarily have to apply to you.

You fulfilled your end of the deal last year. It's a new year. Time to re-negotiate.

NFP's still have operating budgets and still pay their employees, because that's how business is done.

[Erik Anderson]

There was no counter offer. It was 'we can't pay that since it's a charity event'. The company holding it is not a NFP, just for clarifications.

I agree that I'm not obligated in any way to give them anything. If I had a better experience with this guy, I'd consider trading out some advertisement in the magazine, but that's not the case. I'd thought about writing her an email back discussing it, but I don't think it'll go anywhere.

On another note, if I were to donate the images to the cause, would I be entitled to a charitable donation tax credit this year for the market value of the images in their usage? If they make a billboard of my images which goes for $1000 usage fee and X posters which is $500, would I get to claim a $1500 tax deduction? If so, would I just generate an invoice then have the last line item be 'Charitable Donation' with a credit for the invoice amount?

[Jacob Leveton]

i meant ask them to make a counter offer of what they CAN afford. I find it hard to believe that they have zero operating budget. Sounds like they are being cheap, not charitable.

as far as the tax credit, I believe so.

[Jim Sykes]

From what I have been told you cannot take a tax credit for usage fees and such since there is no hard evidence as to its worth. You can only take the credit for the actual media it was delivered on, IE, the CD or whatever.

But you should definitely talk with your CPA (you do have one right running a business) about such things.

[Mike Ditz]

Let go of the dislike for the guy keep it on a bizness level. If they don't want to barter space for the use of the pic, there's not a lot you can do other than offer.

Talk to your accountant. What you suggest may or may not fly with the IRS, since no money is exchanged, just the use of an intangible asset.

[Erik Anderson]

Let go of the dislike for the guy keep it on a bizness level. If they don't want to barter space for the use of the pic, there's not a lot you can do other than offer.

Talk to your accountant. What you suggest may or may not fly with the IRS, since no money is exchanged, just the use of an intangible asset.

Everything is strictly business but I'd be lying is I didn't say his previous actions don't cause me to mistrust him at this point. I'm just wary of anything not involving me getting paid up front with him.

[John Thawley]

After reading all of this..

Just say no. You'll respect yourself in the morning. This is a bad arrangement right from the get go.

Man up and walk away.