Pricing for a catalog (let's role play!)

[Jacob Leveton]

How would you price this situation?

So a friend of mine who I've worked with before (used to own a shop, I'd shoot his cars for him for a price) calls me up, says he's doing marketing at a new rim company. They make 20's and bigger, forged 2 and 3 piece wheels, targeted at high end clients. Asks me to come down, meet the owner, and discuss a shoot.

Setup the meeting, and check out their stuff. They've setup a little table top setup with a black background and some low-end constant lighting (not quite home depot, but not much more expensive). He shows me the photos, explains why he's not happy, and what he wants. He's VERY picky on the lighting. They want a complex photo that isn't just the rim, but also has some stylized elements with a textured background, some materials in the foreground (in the sample he used some metal shavings, I think it looked pretty good), and very specific lighting requirements. He also showed me the Rolex watch website, showing me how each watch line has their own character and feel to it. He wanted that for his line, with each design having a different backdrop and feel to it (but similar colors and such).

I explained that I had a 4-strobe studio setup, and could use that to dial in exactly what he'd want. I also explained that I'd need more room than the table-top he had provided (although he had plenty of space in the warehouse, so we wouldn't need to rent a studio per say).

Overall, there were 12 designs of wheels. Each rim would need 3-5 shots (1 or 2 face shots, 2 or 3 'character' shots). All shots would be used in the catalog, on the website, in sales materials, in magazine ads, etc. Distribution size was unknown, he basically wanted unlimited rights. No retouching necessary, he has a graphic designer who will do that work.

I guessed it would be about 8 hours worth of work, to get it exactly how he wanted it. I told him I'd work something up, and get him a quote.

A day later, he called and asked if we could do it this weekend, before I had a quote together. I am moving, so I can't, but could do next weekend if he wanted. He said that was fine, but he wanted to get the quote soon if possible.



now, where do you price this at? Exact prices aren't necessary (that would be price fixing), an estimate of price-per-wheel or the day-rate you'd use would be good.*


*I priced this out and submitted a rate already, and got my answer back already. I want to see how my price compares to other people...

[Mark Delbrueck]

I would never grant unlimited rights.

[Jacob Leveton]

agreed.

So let's say 1 year, images will be used in catalog / on their website / in their print ads / on their sales brochures. This is the first catalog they've done as a company, so they don't know how many they will be printing just yet.

[Mark Delbrueck]

I would also make sure to write into the contract a clause about 3rd party usage. Do you want them to be able to turn around and sell the images again to suppliers of the product or event coordinators?

[Todd Corzett]

I would start with a day rate and make it such that you feel you are compensated appropriately for your time. I would also factor in a 'if it takes more than 8 hours' sort of clause... it seems like the owner who is "VERY picky on the lighting" may want something 'extra'. I can imagine you get everything up and shoot your 8 Hours... only to have the owner say, "I want something more like this... or that... or more character... etc". Basically, I'd have something in there to make it so that you aren't just being paid for the job... but also your time.

Second thing would be the usage of the images. And this I would do on a case-by-case basis. I would be clear to explain to the client why this scheme is better than an unlimited use... they only pay for what they need, rather than $$$$ per image for something they may never use. Maybe the day rate could include some limited usage, such that they feel they are getting something for paying you to shoot (other than great images). Something small, and very well defined. When it comes to the usage I would be clear that all other usage other than what is clearly defined is not authorized. If they have questions about the 'total costs' of usage for different types of things, be prepared to have some ballpark figures ready (ie. how much would it be for 3rd party vendors to use it in catalogs, websites, etc.). Now, if they are able to pay $$$$ for a day rate... I may be less interested in getting everything from usage (ie. granting semi-unlimited rights for some images).

It really hard to sum it all up without being in the situation... the biggest thing I find is reading the client and figuring out what they are thinking... and translating that into the best situation for me (and them).

-Todd...

[Mike Ditz]

To me this looks like a two or three day job with a day of prep, getting the right wheels all polished up, figuring out what background to use for each rim. Do they have layouts or just ideas in the bosses head?12 rims with 5 shots of each? 60 shots that need to be different yet have a consistant look....Sure, it could be done in eight hours, but I wouldn't want to do it. Have you ever worked with this client before? You say he is picky about lighting and uses the Rolex site as reference..be prepared to spend a couple hours on each wheel. There are few things harder to light than round chrome things, in addition to your 4 heads you will need a few 4x8 sheets of fome-core in both white and black and c stands and...well a lot of stuff that you would find in a studio rather than a warehouse.
A day rate might work out well for you becasue it could take you all day to shoot only a couple rims so the job could stretch out much longer than anticipated.
Don't nitpick about usage, charge enough
I don;t know how much experience you have with lighting in a studio..having the option of retouching is good as oyu won;t have to get it 100% perfect in camera. These days there is so much post work done that the photo is basically a starting point and a good retoucher ends up doing 50% of the work. These kind of shots you could do in 8 hours....or less.

Dont start the job before it is planned out and the estimate (not bid) is approved.

Good luck.

[Jacob Leveton]

So here's the deal:

I talked to several resources about this. everyone came up with around the same amount, give or take. From 2x a daily rate, to a set number per design, to a flat rate + licensing fee, all the prices I received when bouncing ideas off of people were between $1,000 and $3,000, depending on how it was itemized.

I itemized out a quote as such:

- A 'location' fee to give me some time to setup and tear down
- a media fee to account for the CF used, and transferring / storing images
- an 'hourly rate' for all time spent shooting, with a 'day rate' equal to 5.5 times the hourly rate being the max per day.
- Licensing fees equal to around $150 per design. I knew this was well below the standard rate, but had a feeling that the client would think this extra 'fee' was unnecessary.

If all of this could be done in one day, I promised that the budget would not exceed a specific amount (a slight discount from all fees above added together). I stated that as with any shoot, half would be expected day-of, with another half payable no more than 30 days after receipt of the images. All terms and specifics would have to be put into a contract, signed and sealed before any work would begin.

I expected there would be some negotation back and forth, so in quoting everything, I had expected to get around 80% of what I actually quoted, with my floor being around 60% (which I would only go that low if they offered to put into the contract that I would be doing a specific number of future shoots, etc).




I got a phone call late last night, stating that the price was a bit much. There was some back and forth discussion about what the client was REALLY getting for the price, and how much he had paid for photography before. I explained that my price was less than 1 set of his rims retailed for, and when targeting high-end clients, the photography needs to be top quality. He stated that he had hired several photographers in the past, and they always just charged a day rate, no 'licensing crap'. I explained how it was actually cheaper this way, as shooting for unlimited licensing would be substantially more. Then, the hammer dropped. He had asked a well-known photographer how much he would charge to shoot it, and he said $300. I thought he meant $300 per design, which was more than what I had quoted. I was told it was $25 per wheel, for a total of $300 for a day's worth of work. This photographer hadn't met the client, just had a quick 2 minute phone conversation along the lines of "hey, I need photos of 12 wheels"... "ok, I'll do it for $300".


at that point, I realized that this client was not one I wanted to work with, and wished him luck with his (ad)ventures.

[Mike Ditz]

$300 per day 12 wheels x 5 shots per = $5 per shot...

"well-known photographer" ha! what a load of crap. Well known barrista who can borrow a camera is more like it.

You dodged a bullet.

This is one of the problems when dealing directly with small time clients. Unless they have a agency, they are not going to go for all this licensing crap and I can see their point. Most photographers understand it only form the photog point of view and have a had time articulating it so Mr. Client doesn't feel like he's getting screwed. You also have to keep in perspective what unltd licensing involves and you won't win if you are using it as a baseline for a shot of a pimp my ride product shot of a blingy rim...well there isn't that much use for such a photo other than a product shot and I wonder if the client has unltd $ to do unltd advertising in his tiny niche market boutique product.

Choose your battles. Sometimes it's ok to cash the check (not the $300 one..LOL) and walk away. If the check is big enough.

[John Jovic]

You dodged a bullet.



BIG TIME!

[Dylan Wiggins]

Thanks for posting this story, it's really interesting to see the innermost workings of photo dealings.

And may I just say good move passing on that one. What happens when he realizes that all photos are not created equal?

[Mike Ditz]

And may I just say good move passing on that one. What happens when he realizes that all photos are not created equal?

He won't. The money he saved on photography will be spent on retouching.

[Jacob Leveton]

Thanks for posting this story, it's really interesting to see the innermost workings of photo dealings.

No problemo! Every time I work on a bid, or hear about another bid, I find something that I learn myself. The feedback I gathered from other photographers I trust helped me immensely with this project, and I'm happy to pass this information on.

What happens when he realizes that all photos are not created equal?

My price will have gone up ;)

[Jacob Leveton]

This is what was produced for $300:
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii63/capitalforged/wheels/?action=view&current=75b31897.pbw

Very different from what I was asked to produce, but I think they also got what they paid for.

[Keith Schoeler]

I'd say the photographer - for whatever use of the word that is worth - made out like a bandit. Looks like about 30 minutes of work there. The real question...is the client happy with that? Sometimes a client may talk a big game with what they want but that is only because of their limitations with what they've tried.

[Mike Ditz]

I'd say the photographer - for whatever use of the word that is worth - made out like a bandit. Looks like about 30 minutes of work there. The real question...is the client happy with that? Sometimes a client may talk a big game with what they want but that is only because of their limitations with what they've tried.

No the client made out tlike a bandit...Of course he's happy with that :rolleyes:

[John Thawley]

Yeah, what's with assessing the value based on time? Somebody doesn't have a clue on how to price a job. There's time AND use of the images. $300 is an absolute joke.

[Kevin Camp]

I have seen both sides of this situation at my primary job. I work for a company that produces high end custom ironwork, my photography is a side business.

When building a 48,000 square foot estate home, many don't bat an eye at a monumental stair railing that exceeds $400k, after all its a drop in the bucket on a $150 million project. However, there are those out there that want a stair railing worthy of a layout in Architectural Digest for less than half what its worth. There are big time $500/hour architects in the northeast that just find it hard to believe that a very small company in Tulsa, Oklahoma copuld want so much for a job that might have 3000 man hours in it. The good part is that there are many in the business that know quality and are more than willing to pay for it.

Just as in custom ironwork, materials are a pittance compared to your time and your expertise. That's truly what they are paying for. I struggle with it at times, but never sell yourself short.

[Mike Hoyer]

The question is, do you think Rolex paid someone $300 to do all their photography? :D