Calendar

[Jeff Wilson]

Hey guys, I'm considering running a calendar of some of my images, has anyone here done that? If you have experience with it, I'm curious about a couple things: overall was it worth the effort and who did you use to print the calendars?

[John Thawley]

Jeff, there are lots of options for producing the calendar. CafePress is probably the least amount of risk as they only print as you sell.

With others, you risk the cost of producing quantity.

I find the biggest problem is market reach. Getting the message out there and making the product available is really tough and can be extremely expensive.

JT

[Keith Schoeler]

I used Kinko's for a small batch last year, they turned out pretty well.

I'll probably produce some more for '07 and plan on using Psprint.com or Photoworks.com based on recommendations.

[Jim Sykes]

Just make sure you get all your releases as well. If they are production vehicles, you also really have to consider releases from the manufacturers, some, like VW, will agressively go after products of this type when their logos and identifying marks are clear in the photos. Its one of the main reasons you have never seen an official VWVortex sponsored calendar of their readers modified cars...they dont want to face the wrath of VW.

[Jeff Wilson]

Just make sure you get all your releases as well. If they are production vehicles, you also really have to consider releases from the manufacturers, some, like VW, will agressively go after products of this type when their logos and identifying marks are clear in the photos. Its one of the main reasons you have never seen an official VWVortex sponsored calendar of their readers modified cars...they dont want to face the wrath of VW.

Ugh. I'd forgotten all about "product placement" in our brave new litigious society. Out of curiousity though, shouldn't this affect tuner magazines as well, such as Eurotuner and PVW? I know they don't get a logo release for every feature shoot. :confused:

[John Thawley]

Ugh. I'd forgotten all about "product placement" in our brave new litigious society. Out of curiousity though, shouldn't this affect tuner magazines as well, such as Eurotuner and PVW? I know they don't get a logo release for every feature shoot. :confused:


Welcom to the world of GRAY terminology. A magazine is editorial a book is not. :) For the life of me, I really question whether there is a legitimet difference or one of just laywer expense greenmail.

When I originally did my first ALMS book, I raised the question... what is the difference between my annual year book and Racer Magazine? One is monthly and one is annual. The response? Call a lawyer and find out.

To this day... I disagree. If my photos can appear in a magazine chronicling the event... they should also be avaialbe to appear in a book chronicling the season.

Argh!!!!

JT

[Jeff Wilson]

I guess I'll just run this one past my lawyer then, to be sure. I think the crux of it is brand dilution or brand recognition that may form the basis for a trademark complaint. I know the laws surrounding this issue are changing, based on trademark visibility in film. I was recently reading an article about this, but I don't think any decisions have been reached.

I really need to join ASMP, this would be a perfect question for them.

[Jim Sykes]

I'd like to hear an answer to that John, as a book also is editorial in many ways and its the reason that guys like Friedman can publish their books about IMSA and Corvette, etc.

As to the calendar, its a commercial project, not a news oriented publication, therefore not editorial like a mag would be.

Get a good lawyer if you want to do it, I dont know all the details about what you can and cant do, I just know that when I talked to the VMG guys about doing a calendar, they said they have thought about it and looked into it many times, but decided against it due to those issues. Not sure how their video is different, but apparently in their eyes, or the eyes of their lawyer it is.

I always go back to a story of a guy I know that owned quite a large VW tuning business. They ran a car show and had a t-shirt with a DRAWING of a VW on it (no logos or names). VW found out about it and sued him and put him out of business because of a t-shirt with a drawing.

In my eyes it comes down to too much risk for a moderate benefit at best.

[Matt Mullarkey]

bringing this back from the dead with a story... Me and my Partner made up a bunch of calendars last year on Cafepress for the local racers on my web site.. No one (cafepress) said anything about the images and the racers loved the calendars.. so this year we made more calendars from the 2007 seasons photos and half of them were removed from the public "store". when we called, CafePress said Ford doesn't want any Mustang photos being sold in thier products, Chevrolet doesn't want any Corvette photos being sold and AMX does want ANY of thier cars Photos being sold... so i guess we don't sell any calendars this year... lol... oh well, 2 weeks of work down the drain.

[John Thawley]

See... this is where I feel we get into copyright stupidity. In the past, people have lost their "rights" to a word when they've allowed it to become part of the public domain. Band-aid, xerox... to name a few.

But in this isntance, "Ford doesn't want a Mustangs... Chevy doesn't want any Corvettes..." and so on, there needs to be some defined parameters. You can't take the SF Skyline and include the Trans-America building. So... a local Corvette club can't sell calendars featuring their members cars?

I understand protecting their design... product... brand etc. But I honestly think there are too many examples that simply go too far.

JT

[Matt Mullarkey]

according to the lawyer... that corvette club can make calendars for themselves.. but can't sell them to anyone because the corvette is a trademark of Chevrolet.. SO all you photographers selling images to the drivers of these cars at the track can be sued by Ford, Chevy, AMX for trademark infringement..

Lawyers are destroying this country..

[Jim Sykes]

Most of the problem is a result of the lack of common in today's society. People do not want to think for themselves anymore. Its present in every aspect of society from Politics all the way down to the most base level of society.

A straight A student that brings a nail clipper to school that has one of those little fold out files on them with the sharp point is treated th same as a gang-banger with a 5 inch double-edged knife because knives arent allowed in school. No one wants to think about what the TRUE consequences of each are and make any kind of common sense decision.

These companies should look at the TRUE consequences of such usages and use some common sense about what is really dangerous to their image and what isnt.

However, no one wants to make any kinds of decisions like that anymore. Its much easier to just draw a line in the sand and make it an absolute. Then they do not have to spend time evaluating the situations and make decisions on them. They dont have to tell someone they cant do it while someone else can. Its likely that the person that is denied is a minority and will sue the company for discriminating against them. There is just too much bullshit for the companies to deal with in situations like this so they just make and absolute law and stick to it.

In this case Cafepress is in the same boat. They dont want to decide what is ok and what isnt. GM and Ford have stated their terms and Cafepress has to live with and enforce them with no gray area. Its a do or dont situation.

[Jim Sykes]

according to the lawyer... that corvette club can make calendars for themselves.. but can't sell them to anyone because the corvette is a trademark of Chevrolet.. SO all you photographers selling images to the drivers of these cars at the track can be sued by Ford, Chevy, AMX for trademark infringement..

Lawyers are destroying this country..

Not really. The lawyer said they can do what they want as long as its for themselves and are not selling them for profit.

Well, when I work for a team, I'm working for that team to create images of their OWN vehicles for their OWN use. The team is not selling them for profit, they are using them just like the club would be using them. I'm just supplying a service for them to get the photos.

So look at it in the way of I'm not selling the photos to them, I'm selling my time and skill. Then they are their photos to use for themselves.

Theoretically, if you wanted to do this for the club, you have the club give you a job designing and supplying the calendar to them. They can then use the calendars for their own use. So in this way you are not selling calendars, you are being contract to perform a service for the club to supply them with calendars.

You'll just have to do it in one transaction and not put them up for sale on Cafepress. You contact the club, find out how many they need, say you can supply them the design and service for $XXX.xx and then give them the calendars in the end. The cost of the calendars is built into the total price for your services.

Cafepress and the companies are more concerned with the public sale to ANYONE of the calendars, not the fact that the owners are getting to see their own cars. Do it as a service and supply them with so many calendars and collect for your labor and you should be good to go.

[Matt Mullarkey]

why should i go through all that hassle when the outcome is the same. if I want to make calendars with my photos and sell them i should be able to.

[John Thawley]

why should i go through all that hassle when the outcome is the same. if I want to make calendars with my photos and sell them i should be able to.

Because life is solving problems. Customers hire me to "fix" a problem or a need they had. I like problems and I like problem solving. AND... I like getting paid for it. :)

JT