And once again I am reminded why I avoid shooting privately owned cars

[Morgan J Segal]

long story.....

So an Art Director friend of mine and I had planned to shoot a car for a possible dealer website in the AD's very interesting parking garage of his apartment. The shoot kept getting postponed and now the AD is moving out of the building at the end of the month and we wouldn't likely be able to shoot there once he's out.
So me, needing to test my new camera and play around with some lighting techniques figured I would shoot something else there as I also didn't want to let the locale go to waste. So we contacted this guy we know who has an extremely modified and radical Lotus. I figured in exchange for him bringing his car, I would give him a few photos since it was test for me and not something I was asked to shoot, but at the same time I didn't want him to give the photos away to magazines or the companies that did the work on the car. Here is some of our email exchange:


Just to be clear upfront, the pictures are for your personal use only and I will retain copyright, so if XXXX or some other company wants to use the images, have them contact me.



Hey is this gonna be a hassle to get copies of the photos?! If so, I'll pass. What does it matter if I want to give a copy to XXXX or post them on the net, it's my car. After all it's a test shoot and no one is making any money on it. I know I'm not.


Photography is how I make my living and I own the photos I take. I usually charge people, magazines, or companies a fair amount of money in order to use the photos (not own them). In this case you would be getting personal use of the photos for free and I certainly have no problem with you posting them on the internet, having them printed for your wall, or even showing them to XXXX and the other companies that worked on the car, but I don't want those companies using MY photos on their websites or to promote their business because then they are making money from the use of my images and I got nothing in return from them. If they want to use them, they should contact me to negotiate an arrangement.


Then get someone else, I can just look in the garage anytime I need to remind myself ...
It seems that everyone wants to make a buck off the shit I do with this car but me..


I am not trying to make a buck off of your car!!! I had no intentions of selling the images, I just don't want those guys to have MY photos for nothing because by the same token, why should XXXX make a buck off of MY work, they're not my friends?

See you around.


WTF?! Is it so hard to understand that he was getting a good deal and that he didn't have the right to give someone else's photos away?

Why is always such a PITA to deal with these people? Just because it is their car doesn't mean that they own the photos

:mad:




Edit to add last correspondence quote

[Rob Stewart]

"Photography is how I make my living and I own the photos I take. I usually charge people, magazines, or companies a fair amount of money in order to use the photos (not own them). In this case you would be getting personal use of the photos for free and I certainly have no problem with you posting them on the internet, having them printed for your wall, or even showing them to XXXX and the other companies that worked on the car, but I don't want those companies using MY photos on their websites or to promote their business because then they are making money from the use of my images and I got nothing in return from them. If they want to use them, they should contact me to negotiate an arrangement."MJS.


Absolutely bang on Morgan! Nice come back, well said.

You are totally right.

[Bill Jurasz]

I get the feeling from that guy's last sentence that he feels something like this happens to him a lot, in some manner. People somehow wanting to make a buck off his car. I think that's what he feels you are trying to do and it doesn't set well with him, probably because he won't be taking any share of that pie.

[Eric McClellan]

I always love the argument that "It's my car and I own the image rights"

LOL!

Actually... you don't. But good luck with that! LOL

[E. John Thawley III]

That conversation sums up every usage discussion I've ever had with anyone in the automotive aftermarket.

[Bill Jurasz]

I have to ask, though, what was in it for the owner of the car? Just the free photos? He didn't ask for the photos to be shot and freely admits they have no value to him (if he wants to see the car he'll just open the garage). In his view he is getting nothing of value to him in return for him taking his expensive possession to some location at some non-zero risk in order for you to possibly make a buck off his possession. Viewed from his perspective he doesn't seem all that illogical to me.

[Morgan J Segal]

I have to ask, though, what was in it for the owner of the car? Just the free photos? He didn't ask for the photos to be shot and freely admits they have no value to him (if he wants to see the car he'll just open the garage). In his view he is getting nothing of value to him in return for him taking his expensive possession to some location at some non-zero risk in order for you to possibly make a buck off his possession. Viewed from his perspective he doesn't seem all that illogical to me.

I forgot to post my response to his last email:

I am not trying to make a buck off of your car!!! I had no intentions of selling the images, I just don't want those guys to have MY photos for nothing because by the same token, why should XXXX make a buck off of MY work, they're not my friends?

See you around.


Well here's the thing, he did sort of ask for it. I had run into him while out driving in the canyons a few weeks ago and he was complaining to me about how bad the photos that the bodyshop who did the work had done (they hired some hack and the photos were terrible), and that he would like some real photos taken. He was also asking me if I knew of any magazines that would be interested in the car. Though he didn't ask me directly to take photos of the car, this conversation is what led me to think of him for this test shoot.

This car is not a pampered show car either, he regularly goes in the canyons and drives at really stupid speeds, so it is not like taking it over to a photoshoot is putting the car at more risk nor would it be a lot of work, he would be just standing around.
Additionally, and I mentioned this to him when I started getting the attitude, he wasn't doing me any big favor, I can go into my own garage or call one of my friends to get a nice car to shoot for a test (heck, I could even shoot my wife's daily driver), the subject didn't really matter that much.
I was trying to be nice to him, he was getting a $1200 (at least) photoshoot for free and all I was going to get out of it was perhaps a portfolio shot of a genre of car I haven't taken pictures of before.



When he totals the car, he won't be able to go in the garage and look at, then he'll wish he had photos :cool:

[Bill Jurasz]

Ah, makes much more sense now. And I agree, when the car is totalled or gone for any other reason he won't be able to go into his garage and look at it. :)

I think of it this way. I have some very nice professional photos of my wife that cost a pretty penny. I can see her every day, and yet I still have the photos. Same idea with the car. :)

[Eric McClellan]

I have some very nice professional photos of my wife that cost a pretty penny. I can see her every day, and yet I still have the photos. Same idea with the car. :)


hahaha... the thought just came through my head comparing the smashed car to the wife..


"Well, when she's old and gravity has set in, you'll cherish those early year pictures"

Lord, i'm going to hell for that one!

[Morgan J Segal]

Lets see the pictures of your wife. :p

any nudes....?......Want to buy some? :D



I used to keep a picture of my car in my wallet (but not my wife).

Good thing for iPhones, now I can carry all kinds of photos with me

[John Thawley]

Hey... at least you didn't have to go through the hassle of him showing up and then standing around yawning asking "so, how much longer is this gonna take?"

I've just responded to a:

"I just love your work. I'd like to buy all the shots you have of us this season. Can you put them on a disk and let me know how much?"

Why do have this haunting feeling this is going to end badly?

JT

[Steve Stein]

Here's a thought.

You could say that if anyone was interested in using the photos you would give him a finder's fee of xx% so he feels he's getting something in return for his time and troubles. Heck, it could be a gift card for Pep Boys in return. I'm sure he'll need some mudflaps or something down the road.

He's right, he didn't hire you, but he's wrong in assuming he owns the rights to your images. People assume that all the time since "it's digital".

[Morgan J Segal]

Meh, I went and shot my own car last night, I don't need the aggravation. Had he been a little more pleasant, I would have considered working something out.

[Mike Ditz]

I have found that about 3 out of 10 rich car-guys are pleasant easy to deal with people.

[Eric McClellan]

I have found that about 3 out of 10 rich car-guys are pleasant easy to deal with people.


That's a very specific number! LOL!

[John Thawley]

Meh, I went and shot my own car last night, I don't need the aggravation. Had he been a little more pleasant, I would have considered working something out.

And it turned out great. His loss.

[Morgan J Segal]

Funny, I just saw today that he put the car up for sale, I guess he won't be able to go look at it in his garage. Probably could have used some good pictures to sell it too. :p

[Ronnie Renaldi]

Funny, I just saw today that he put the car up for sale, I guess he won't be able to go look at it in his garage. Probably could have used some good pictures to sell it too. :p
I wanna see the car, link please?

[Morgan J Segal]

I wanna see the car, link please?


Sorry, I should have said I "heard" that he is selling it. I don't have a link to it

[Morgan J Segal]

I also don't want to reveal who it is, as I discovered a little while back, it seems the walls have ears on this forum

[Andrew Bright]

Just my two cents, but in these situations I find that discussing this kind of issue by phone is way preferable than doing so by email. People seem to be able to understand each other much better and reach an agreement much more easily when dealing with a voice than a bunch of words on a screen. You get to ask questions, get a feel for the other guy, it's win-win.

Of course you follow up with a written copy of your agreement - of course - but in this age people seem to have forgotten the value of a simple phone call.

[Sean Klingelhoefer]

This car didn't happen to be grey with orange wheels did it?

[Morgan J Segal]

This car didn't happen to be grey with orange wheels did it?


yup ;)

[Daniel Buck]

lol small world eh? :D