If anyone needs external storage...

[Chris Clark]

Best Buy has Western Digital "MyBook" external hard drives on sale this week.

250gb for $99

pretty good deal as far as I know.:)

[Jacob Leveton]

DAMN IT! and my best buy card was almost paid off...

[Michael Chu]

THANK YOU!! I will go pick one up :)

[Todd Corzett]

Good deal... but, you can get the same drive (WD 250GB 7200RPM 8MB Buffer) for $69.90 online (mwave.com), and put it into a case that has more efficient cooling. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the little stackable cases that are prone to overheating... give me something that BLOWS!.

My personal favorites are the Maxtor 300GB SATA300 7200RPM 16MB Buffer drives... mwave.com has them for $99. I have 8 of them spinning hooked to my desktop (take 8 of those, pop them into an 8-bay case, add a PCI RAID5 card, and bingo... 2.1TB RAID at about $0.50 per GB)

-Todd...

[Jim Sykes]

Look, we all know you like blowing Todd, but some of us dont like blowing as much as you do. ;)

[Todd Spoth]

Good deal... but, you can get the same drive (WD 250GB 7200RPM 8MB Buffer) for $69.90 online (mwave.com), and put it into a case that has more efficient cooling. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the little stackable cases that are prone to overheating... give me something that BLOWS!.

My personal favorites are the Maxtor 300GB SATA300 7200RPM 16MB Buffer drives... mwave.com has them for $99. I have 8 of them spinning hooked to my desktop (take 8 of those, pop them into an 8-bay case, add a PCI RAID5 card, and bingo... 2.1TB RAID at about $0.50 per GB)

-Todd...


thats nice but maxtor is infamous for crashing. probably THE single worst HDD brand out there.

[Todd Corzett]

thats nice but maxtor is infamous for crashing. probably THE single worst HDD brand out there.
I have 16 of them spinning next to me that say the contrary. 4 of my 120GB drives have been running nearly 24/7 for 4 years now, 4 of the 250GB drives running 24/7 for over 2 years, and the 8 300GB drives 24/7 for 7 months. Granted I keep my drives cool (hence the "blowing" comment).

I do believe that some of the enclosures (the "touch" ones) have major issues... but, the bare drives are great (IMO). You take big, fast spinning drives, put them in small cases with no fans, stack them on top of each other... it doesn't matter what brand they are... they are going to fail. I agree that Maxtor gets a big thumbs down from many people on the web... who are complaining of failures... but there are many people who complain about other brands as well (even WD, Segate, etc.). People tend to have their favorites... and the ones they dislike.

Now... maybe it's a good thing that I use Maxtor drives that are "prone to failure", as it reminds me that I need to backup my drives. ALL HARD DRIVES WILL FAIL... it is not a matter of IF, but WHEN. So, high failure rates or not... you need to backup your data... and then backup the backups! I don't care what brand people buy... just make sure you back them up! A 5-year (vs. 2-year) replacement warrantee doesn't help with data recovery!

-Todd...

[John Thawley]

I agree with failure reports on all brands. Let's face it, if everyone that DIDN'T have a drive fail wrote with the same "enthusiasm" as those that write about the ones that do, then and only then would you possibliyt have a true measure of one brand vs. another. The fact is, if you've just lost a drive, you're going to tell everyone and his brother to stay away from those drives.

I run all LaCies... nearly two terabyte at this point. If I believed every bad "reader review" that was written, I'd be shooting film. LOL

As Todd says, the only good offense to drive failure is BACK-UP. My biggest issue at this point is whether to back-up a third copy on hot drives or stored drives. I just don't like turning electronics off. :(

I mentioned to Jimmy the other day, what we need is enough bandwidth to have offsite (online) databanks for back-up and storage. After all, once your files where stored, it's only a matter of running a syncronized back-up. Heck, even if there were local "databanks" for mass storage. Might be an up and coming busness model. I mean whoever thought we be sitting on personal data of 100s of gigabytes. Absurd.

JT

[Todd Corzett]

I agree with failure reports on all brands. Let's face it, if everyone that DIDN'T have a drive fail wrote with the same "enthusiasm" as those that write about the ones that do, then and only then would you possibility have a true measure of one brand vs. another. The fact is, if you've just lost a drive, you're going to tell everyone and his brother to stay away from those drives.
Amen!

I run all LaCies... nearly two terabyte at this point.
And if you open them up... most of the drives (from what I hear) are Maxtors.

As Todd says, the only good offense to drive failure is BACK-UP. My biggest issue at this point is whether to back-up a third copy on hot drives or stored drives. I just don't like turning electronics off. :(
I don't mind having electronics off... I just don't like turning them back on (that's the greatest time for failure). My solution is a RAID5 (so basically 2 copies) hot that is on 24/7 for easy access/backup, then a DVD backup stored off-site (copy 3), and a then a backup of the RAID5 on a RAID1 (2 more copies, so 4 and 5) that is turned on/off periodically to do backups (I was getting a little tired of all the extra noise, heat, and energy bills... so decided to not have it 24/7 anymore)... and last but not least, my working images (laptop or desktop drives) for copy 6 (and sometimes 7). Paranoid? Nope... I need to back things up more... and have more of it off-site... I would loose quite a bit right now if I had to go back to the DVD copy of things. When I fill-up my RAID5, and need to build something new... I will more than likely incorporate a tape backup (which becomes cost effective compared to DVDs at about 4TB the last time I ran the numbers), which would be stored off-site.

Oh yeah, another thing that is really nice is to backup several history states of the files as well. My computer automatically makes a backup of any modified files every night. This allows me to go back in time incase I delete something, edit a file I didn’t want, etc. I have used this quite a few times when editing a file... I normally save a copy each major change, but there are times you just make mistakes... and this has saved me from going back to the RAW images and starting over.

And last thing... a backup solution that is not used religiously is not a backup! Do it all the time... and if you don't want to do it, set something else up to do it for you (RAID, Retrospect, etc.). I know that I'm a few events behind with DVD backups... and it is leaving me venerable to image loss... but I can’t complain to anyone but myself if something happens and I loose images due to my lazyness.

I mentioned to Jimmy the other day, what we need is enough bandwidth to have offsite (online) databanks for back-up and storage. After all, once your files where stored, it's only a matter of running a synchronized back-up. Heck, even if there were local "databanks" for mass storage. Might be an up and coming business model. I mean whoever thought we be sitting on personal data of 100s of gigabytes. Absurd.
There are solutions out there, but they are prohibitively expensive when you get to TB sizes... and, I don't want to trust my data to someone else’s business model... what happens if the company goes under? Can I get my data back? Because of this... I would only trust it as much as a DVD... basically, a last resort.

What I have been thinking of doing is getting a static IP address and networking my archive (or some variation of it) for backup when I'm at an event. One thing I'm never really comfortable with is shooting a whole weekend and having the only backups be on a HD that could just as easily be stolen/damaged as my laptop (even through I keep them in separate locked locations accept when transferring information). It would be nice, especially since my computer sits on in the media center all day, to have everything backup to my server at home. Just one less thing for me to worry about.

-Todd...

[John Thawley]

Todd:

I tried running back-ups just over a networked file server... it just doesn't cut it. Half the time the back up fails... and, of course, it's dog slow.

My trackside model now is to download simultaneously to my laptop and a protable drive each time a card is ingested. This feels a little more comfortable... and if at all possible, I don't use a memroy card twice during an event. So.. for the most part, I'm coming home with three sets of my work.

With respect to having nearly seven copies of your files....DUDE............. if you are so unlucky as to lose SIX copies of your files, you're going to get hit by a car on your way to pick up the last off-site drive anyway. If I lose three sets, I'm comfortable knowing it just wasn't meant to be. I'll be slinging Vente Lattes down at Starbucks.

Of course, Todd.... just because they've diagnosed you as paarnoid, that still does not prove that someone isn't really following you.

SEVEN copies?

[Todd Spoth]

haha srsly 7 copies??

i think im lazy.

btw. since we have another Todd that posts on here and it makes things difficult, my name from now on is Lord Barington.

[Jim Sykes]

Haha, from this you'd actually think that Todd's photos were worth something. :D

Todd, please explain to me how a RAID 5 is two backups. Its simply one copy, it only protects you against any one drive failing, however, if your RAID controller goes bad, you're still screwed.

I agree that all drives fail, and I also agree that those that have failures are more likely to preach about how they suck. However, either Maxtor is selling far more drives than anyone else or they are having more drives fail as I see far more treads/posts about Maxtor failures than any other drive out there.

[Mike Ditz]

Wow. That's a lot of drives. That's a lot of files. That's a lot of b-b-b-back up. I guess I just don't shoot enough:)

[Morgan J Segal]

Picture from Todds house

http://www.funfry.com/data/503/medium/stacks_of_computers_funfry_resize.jpg


Why do you need that much back up for shots that are essentially going to be obsolete next year when all the cars, teams, and paint schemes change?

What are you going to do in a few years, when you have 20 million photos, your place really will look like the photo above?


I only have one copy on an external hard drive and two copies on DVD. I figure the chance of all three dying at once are pretty slim and by the time the DVD's kick, I should hope I no longer care much about the photos (otherwise, I'd be a pretty stagnant photographer).
I am more worried about a fire and so far I have not found an offsite solution that is both affordable and not troublesome to use

I do keep a folder with a selection of my favorite photos that I have on multiple hard drives and DVD but those are my portfolio

[John Thawley]

The only thing, though, Morgan, is there are photographers both dead and living whos archives have brought their families a pretty tidy sum. If you look at The Klemantaski Collection , they have bought up quite a few. And while they are all worthy images, they're not necessarily all masterpieces. So, I do think it's worth viewing your body of work as an assett.... both for its monetary value and its emotional currency. After all, most older images tend to be view as "cool" or "interesting" because they're old. Certainly not for the criteria we tend to critique on this board.

As much as backing up, I'd like to one day "clean-up." What I mean by that is to go through and trm down my take from each event... then maybe out an outside pari of eyes trim it down again.. then really focus on storiing and preserving that set. I think you make a good point about a lot of it just becoming obsolete... but then again, I got a call last week from a collector that bought an old Trans-Am car and wants a set of images. He's talking about dropping $1K on a half dozen photos. ... not a lot of money... but, heck it'd buy Todd a few more hard drives. LOL

JT


FYI... for those that may have not had the opportunity to view The Klemantaski Collection, we represent many of their photographers at Wheels On Walls... http://www.wheelsonwalls.com

[Chris Clark]

The only thing, though, Morgan, is there are photographers both dead and living whos archives have brought their families a pretty tidy sum. If you look at The Klemantaski Collection , they have bought up quite a few. And while they are all worthy images, they're not necessarily all masterpieces. So, I do think it's worth viewing your body of work as an assett.... both for its monetary value and its emotional currency. After all, most older images tend to be view as "cool" or "interesting" because they're old. Certainly not for the criteria we tend to critique on this board.


I was about to mention the same thing John.

One day while fooling around on the net I stumbled across the F1 archive of Bernard Cahier. He shot F1 in the 50's. Pics of Fangio, Graham Hill, Phil Hill, racing on the high banks of Monza, Spa, and the Nordschleife etc... I can't imagine what a collection like that is worth.

So, while in 5 years you may not have much interest in stuff from '06, how about in 2056?

[Todd Spoth]

The only thing, though, Morgan, is there are photographers both dead and living whos archives have brought their families a pretty tidy sum. If you look at The Klemantaski Collection , they have bought up quite a few. And while they are all worthy images, they're not necessarily all masterpieces. So, I do think it's worth viewing your body of work as an assett.... both for its monetary value and its emotional currency. After all, most older images tend to be view as "cool" or "interesting" because they're old. Certainly not for the criteria we tend to critique on this board.

As much as backing up, I'd like to one day "clean-up." What I mean by that is to go through and trm down my take from each event... then maybe out an outside pari of eyes trim it down again.. then really focus on storiing and preserving that set. I think you make a good point about a lot of it just becoming obsolete... but then again, I got a call last week from a collector that bought an old Trans-Am car and wants a set of images. He's talking about dropping $1K on a half dozen photos. ... not a lot of money... but, heck it'd buy Todd a few more hard drives. LOL

JT


FYI... for those that may have not had the opportunity to view The Klemantaski Collection, we represent many of their photographers at Wheels On Walls... http://www.wheelsonwalls.com

+10 points for using "emotional currency"

[Todd Corzett]

Of course, Todd.... just because they've diagnosed you as paranoid, that still does not prove that someone isn't really following you.
Actually... I do think that "THEY" are following me... I can brief you on the number of police/sheriff/CHP cars that I see each day/week if you are really interested :rolleyes:

Haha, from this you'd actually think that Todd's photos were worth something. :D
I have to have all the infrastructure in place just incase I do get one photo that is worth something!

Todd, please explain to me how a RAID 5 is two backups. Its simply one copy, it only protects you against any one drive failing, however, if your RAID controller goes bad, you're still screwed.
Ok, IMO, since it would take two drives to fail... it would be 2 copies... and technically, the data is copied twice across the drives (hence why you can loose any single drive). Then again, some wouldn't even call a RAID5 a backup... but that's a different story... CORRECT viri (though I am on a Mac), RAID controller fryn', etc. will cause a loss of the RAID (and John, this is the reason why I have more than two backups). If you really wanted to be picky, you could consider any two copies at the same location only a single backup... as it doesn't prevent loss in the case of fire/flood or theft.

Why do you need that much back up for shots that are essentially going to be obsolete next year when all the cars, teams, and paint schemes change?
More than half of the images that I have sold so far this year have been from previous years. Not all images are going to people who care about this year's cars... some of them don't even care what car it is, rather just an image that depicts a specific action. Part of my philosophy in this game is to create an archive... and that archive has value. Just imagine... having an archive of images from every race in California for the last decade... oh, never mind - not everything revolves around California :rolleyes:

What are you going to do in a few years, when you have 20 million photos, your place really will look like the photo above?
The nice thing is that drives are getting bigger and bigger... 8 years ago I was using 9GB drives. If I was to re-build my RAID5 with the largest drives I can buy it would be the same physical size... but with 750GB drives I'd have 5.25TB rather than just 2.1TB. As time goes on the cost of things drop as well, so storage of my 20 million photos is similar to today.

I only have one copy on an external hard drive and two copies on DVD. I figure the chance of all three dying at once are pretty slim and by the time the DVD's kick, I should hope I no longer care much about the photos (otherwise, I'd be a pretty stagnant photographer).
Basically, I have one the same thing... just rather than the external drive I have a RAID5 and rather than one of the DVDs I have a second RAID. Personally, I like large drives... and getting anything over 750GB requires multiple drives being striped (so a loss of redundancy - if one drive fails, all data is lost from both drives).

I am more worried about a fire and so far I have not found an offsite solution that is both affordable and not troublesome to use
Fire and theft are my two biggest concerns... because it would force me to go back to my DVDs. This is something that I need to seriously address in the near future.

I do keep a folder with a selection of my favorite photos that I have on multiple hard drives and DVD but those are my portfolio
When it comes to backing-up... I treat every photo as if it was my portfolio.

-Todd...

[John Jovic]

I mentioned to Jimmy the other day, what we need is enough bandwidth to have offsite (online) databanks for back-up and storage. After all, once your files where stored, it's only a matter of running a syncronized back-up. Heck, even if there were local "databanks" for mass storage. Might be an up and coming busness model. I mean whoever thought we be sitting on personal data of 100s of gigabytes. Absurd.

JT

I've been thinking about setting up a small, cheap PC in my garage on a wireless lan purely as a second offsite backup. I think it would work for me as my typical job is 3-10GB which can comfortably be copied overnight. It's a practical way of having a second copy off site, which is my biggest problem at the moment. I have multiple copies but they are often in the same place, which is not good.

If I get broken into or there is a fire then this migh save me.

JJ

[Mike Ditz]

Actually... I do think that "THEY" are following me... I can brief you on the number of police/sheriff/CHP cars that I see each day/week if you are really interested :rolleyes:


-Todd...

It's the ones that you don't see that you need to worry about...and the black helicopters.:cool:

[Morgan J Segal]

The only thing, though, Morgan, is there are photographers both dead and living whos archives have brought their families a pretty tidy sum. If you look at The Klemantaski Collection , they have bought up quite a few.

Of all the thousands of images originally taken, how many of those are selling? I'd bet most would have been the "keepers" when they were taken anyway, and the only reason the rejects were not thrown out was because they were attached to the good ones

My point being is that, for the most part, one really only needs to keep the cream of the crop for your archive, there is no reason to keep all the junk.

Do you really want your Archive/ legacy to be shots of blurry door handles? LOL

archives have brought their families a pretty tidy sum

And perhaps for some other peoples families, a pretty big burden ;)

[Morgan J Segal]

The way I see it is: storage space equals money, the space I waste with useless images is money I could be spending on other things (like more storage for the good images)

On location, I usually dump the cards on my laptop hard drive and a secondary HD, then when I get home, I do a loose edit and delete the rejects so not to waste space I could be using for more important stuff. I then do a tight edit down to the images I will submit and do post/retouching on and get to work.
When done, I back up the finals, the tight edit, and the loose edit. I then pick out the images I think are portfolio quality (if there are any) and copy them into my "best of" folder. From this year alone I have nearly 200 images in my "best of" folder. So over my lifetime (assuming it is long), I would have a pretty big archive of the good stuff. I will also presumably have a big archive of loose edit photos, should someone choose to go through them, and I would not be wasting space with an even bigger archive of junk (nor will someone have to sort through that big archive of junk to find the decent ones) :)





The nice thing is that drives are getting bigger and bigger... 8 years ago I was using 9GB drives. If I was to re-build my RAID5 with the largest drives I can buy it would be the same physical size... but with 750GB drives I'd have 5.25TB rather than just 2.1TB. As time goes on the cost of things drop as well, so storage of my 20 million photos is similar to today.

The bigger they come, the harder they fall ;)

[John Thawley]

Ithen pick out the images I think are portfolio quality (if there are any) and copy them into my "best of" folder. From this year alone I have nearly 200 images in my "best of" folder. So over my lifetime (assuming it is long), I would have a pretty big archive of the good stuff.

I think that's what I was getting at... I just don't see the point in 20,000 images per year. I'd rather picture a scenario where someone sat down 25-30 years from now and could thumb through a couple hundered images from 2006 ... and keep repeating... "oh wow... those were cool cars.. or that was a great track, great race... whatever." That's really what you'd want it to be.



The bigger they come, the harder they fall ;)

Amen to that!!!! I'm going to add one or two more 500gb when I back from this next trip... and Kristin asked, why I don't just go ahead and get the terabyte. That was my exact reasoning... I'm getting this additional space because I have concern ofver these things failing... I'd rather double my odds or success with two 500gbs and cut my losses to half if I'm wrong.

JT

[Jacob Leveton]

thanks for the heads up on the HD, i picked one up this weekend :)