Pro membership question

[Jeff Wilson]

Out of curiousity, what exactly does sponsorship by an existing pro member entail? Is it a review of the applicants body of work, or just someone that knows the applicant personally and can speak to character?

Maybe a secret handshake? ;)

[John Thawley]

Jeff:

There are several ways to particiapte in the forum. Obviously, we appreciate everyone's support. The costs involved in the Upgrade packages are to help defray the costs of developing, maintaining and managing the site... hosting, bandwidth etc.

With that in mind, the three levels of Upgrades we offer provide everyone a way to participate.. support our efforts and gain some value in return. We're not lookiing for handouts. :)

The Pro Member Directory is an area reserved for working professionals. It is our hope to build our directory as a resource that people in the publishing and creative industries will eventually turn to when looking for the right person to do their work. Hence the additional benefits included in the Pro Member upgrade.

As a step to preserve the credibility of the directory as we grow it, we felt existing members would have a vested interest in seeing the directory remain true to its goal. Obvously, it doesn't behoove an existing member to refer someone who is not actually a working professional. Furtehrmore, we retain the right to deny any applicant regardless of sponsorship. What is important to know is this is NOT based on the quality of anyone's work. That's for the free market to decide. It is simply a means of building our directory and preserving its usefulness and integrity.

I think this process ultimately benefits all the participants of this board. You see a user's name, you know their standing within our community and you get knowledge and information you can respect and use in confidence.

All users who subscribe to the Image Upload feature or APN Gallery upgrade will also be identified by the APN Supporter avatar, similar to the APN Pro avatar.

http://community.automotivephoto.net/forums/images/avatars/member.gif

http://community.automotivephoto.net/forums/images/avatars/supporter.gif

Hope that clears this up for you.

Thanks,

John

[Todd Corzett]

As a step to preserve the credibility of the directory as we grow it, we felt existing members would have a vested interest in seeing the directory remain true to its goal. Obviously, it doesn't behoove an existing member to refer someone who is not actually a working professional. Furthermore, we retain the right to deny any applicant regardless of sponsorship. What is important to know is this is NOT based on the quality of anyone's work. That's for the free market to decide. It is simply a means of building our directory and preserving its usefulness and integrity.

John - I know it opens a can of worms, but I think the quality of one's work should be judged (be it by the person sponsoring, or those determining who finally becomes a member). This not necessarily means just the photos, but the way they are presented. One of the greatest things that i see about SportsShooter is that people see it as a goal (and not just something they can join because they are working professionals). Often on FM you will see posts with samples of images and discussions about what should/shouldn't be included in a portfolio... captions... etc. I think these discussions are a big learning experience for some people. For example, you may have great photos... but lousy captions... it's something that many people don't think about. Other people would learn that more is not necessarily better. There are also often discussions of composition and cropping. I'd really like to see some of those discussions going on here as well...

I know I put a lot of thought into my SS application, and I'd like others to take that same step here. I would like to hope that the referring members would take this into consideration, but having a set of guidelines for application would make it less of a "secret handshake" thing and more of the "follow the guidelines" thing.

I'm sure you and I will have a nice conversation about this at Laguna, that is if I'm not following Jimmy around :p

-Todd...

[John Thawley]

I would like to hope that the referring members would take this into consideration, but having a set of guidelines for application would make it less of a "secret handshake" thing and more of the "follow the guidelines" thing.

-Todd...

Todd: I think the benchmark establishes itself with that statement. I'm not going to sit in judgement of someone's work. And contrary to what you may feel, I think there are just as many "wankers" on SportShooter as anywhere else. Their closed membership did not come about due to decling quality of members... it came about due to growth issues. Fred Miranda has suffered a similar fate.... server crashes, slow performance... and yes, decline in the quality of participant.

I just looked, there are currently 1970 photographers banging on FM's servers right now. And.... keep in mind, these are image heavy sites. Rob Galibrath recently closed their boards down. I hope we see good solid growth. But, I'm also astutely aware of what our challenges will be in keeping up with the costs of resources. So... we would like to control enjoy controlled growth.

Quaity of character, quality of work, quality of workmanship and the way someoen does business is alll subjective. But who among us as an individual can determine the bar. Perhaps if this site were run by someone who's work wss better than mine or yours, we might not "qualify." What say you then?

So, I've endorsed you... I'll endorse many more to the best of my judgement. And, I trust you will do the same. I'm endorsing people on my own "benchmarks." That may include web site, work, manner in which I was asked, client list and so on. But in general, it will be my overall "gut" feeling. The same "gut" feeling I have about you.

First and foremost I'm going to ask myself, "how will this person conduct themselves on this board and willl he/she work to preserve a quality environment. That includes, who else will they bring into my "home."

If we all ask ourselves that, I think the experiment will work. But to say "he's not good enough?" Nope... not going to go there. I believe those things will take care of themselves.

Honestly, there are many photographers out there that I only hope percieve us ss good enough that they see fit to want to join us.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves.

JT

[Jim Sykes]

Jeff, I'm not sure if John really answered your question or not, he may have in a long and detailed way, but not sure.

Basically the sponsor is just there to be a judge of you as a photographer and be willing to vouch for you to the rest of the community that you would be a good addition to the site and a good photographer to be part of the directory. They are not the ones judging your images or anything like that specifically, though I'm sure their feelings about the quality of your work would be more than part of their decision to sponsor you or not.

I'm not sure if JT has a panel in mind to make a final decision or if it would be up to him, but I imagine then he or the panel would take into account the sponsors recommendation and the quality of your work and apparent professionalism to make the final decision whether or not to grant access. So in a way, it needs to be the whole package. You arent likely to get a sponsor without having good work, have a professional attitude, having a professional appearence (website, etc) and being a knowledgable shooter, and in the same way, if someone you know just wants to sponsor you, without having the rest of the package you arent likely to convince the rest of the folks making the decision either.

JT, if I'm wrong please correct me, but that is my impression from what you have said to me in the past.

And now with all that talk, how the hell did we let Corzett in here??:eek: :p

[Jeff Wilson]

Got it. It sounds a bit like the ASMP sponsorship requirements, and a very good idea.

I do also agree with Todd that the quality of work should play a part in sponsorship. Perhaps more about technical execution than composition. It opens a subjective can of worms, but I think that's just reflective of the business we're in. As part of being added to the pro directory, require the applicant to submit 10~12 images that are representative of their work for a majority rules vote by the rest of the pros in the directory, or a select panel?

Just a thought. Of course you can feel free to ignore me...I don't want to make it harder on myself to get in when the time comes. ;)

Edit: I just realized that John had replied before Jimmy's post and I'd missed it. I'll try to keep up from now on. ;)

[Jim Sykes]

Just a thought. Of course you can feel free to ignore me...I don't want to make it harder on myself to get in when the time comes. ;)

Too late. JT doesnt like anyone questioning him, you are already screwed. :D

[John Jovic]

Often on FM you will see posts with samples of images and discussions about what should/shouldn't be included in a portfolio... captions... etc. I think these discussions are a big learning experience for some people. For example, you may have great photos... but lousy captions... it's something that many people don't think about.

Todd

Captions are relevant to certain fields, but not car photography as a whole.

Captioning is not usually relevant to my work which is to make attractive car pictures.

I think JT is on the right track though. Try to ensure the professionalism of the group but I?m not sure about judging peoples work. That might be opening a Pandoras can of flood gates?

JJ
________
vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/)

[Jeff Wilson]

Too late. JT doesnt like anyone questioning him, you are already screwed. :D

Nooooooooooooo! :eek: :D

[Jim Sykes]

I think certain technical aspects could and should be judged, I mean simple things, like Sports Shooter judges, like clean backgrounds, basic color and exposure correction, consistent white balancing, proper use of DOF, and those kinds of things should be judged and taken into account. If I see a portfolio of ten images and three have WB issues, two have poles coming out of the roofs, two are under exposed and the last three are perfect, I'd have to wonder about the persons true pro status and what kinds of quality advice the person could give.

However, if I see ten quality images that are all technically good, even if I dont like the compositions, that is different and would be considered because they obviously know what they are doing and just cause I dont like them doesnt mean someone else doesnt love them.

But again, its up to what JT has in mind and I think that the input here is good for him to fine tune this project.

[Paul Hansen]

The automotive photography profession, as a whole, contains a lot of different goals. SS is simplified by it being a "Sports" shooter site, which is actually a much narrower field with a fairly well known set of standards.

However, you can be a professional automotive-themed shooter, and never have to touch a caption in your life. It overlaps into the sports shooting profession when people cover the various race events worldwide, but at the extreme opposite end is studio shooting, where you could spend a day on a single shot. As I've recently noticed, we have also gained a member from the shadowy underworld of spy photography. Advert photography is a whole field unto itself.

"Judging" a person to be worthy based on their photography assumes the judges would have a clear idea of all these separate areas of photography, which I wouldn't profess to, to be honest.

Keep in mind this is a personal view, but I would view the "pro" list as being composed of photographers who we trust to get a job done within their respective field(s) of photography. As a resource, it would become valuable to editors looking for somebody to get the job they need done.

Cheers

[John Thawley]

Jeff, I'm not sure if John really answered your question or not, he may have in a long and detailed way, but not sure.

Basically the sponsor is just there to be a judge of you as a photographer and be willing to vouch for you to the rest of the community that you would be a good addition to the site and a good photographer to be part of the directory. They are not the ones judging your images or anything like that specifically, though I'm sure their feelings about the quality of your work would be more than part of their decision to sponsor you or not.

I'm not sure if JT has a panel in mind to make a final decision or if it would be up to him, but I imagine then he or the panel would take into account the sponsors recommendation and the quality of your work and apparent professionalism to make the final decision whether or not to grant access. So in a way, it needs to be the whole package. You arent likely to get a sponsor without having good work, have a professional attitude, having a professional appearence (website, etc) and being a knowledgable shooter, and in the same way, if someone you know just wants to sponsor you, without having the rest of the package you arent likely to convince the rest of the folks making the decision either.

JT, if I'm wrong please correct me, but that is my impression from what you have said to me in the past.

And now with all that talk, how the hell did we let Corzett in here??:eek: :p


Jimmy, I think you've pretty well summed it up.

I would only ask that people be fari and understand, this isn't a club or democracy.... the site is still a business on our end.. We need a flurshing membership for the directory.. and we want quality individuals and their work represented. But, we also have to respect the free market. If a creative director decides to scour our directory for a shooter, HE is the ultimate decision on what he's after. Does he want the very best? Does he want the most affordable? Does he want the best he can afford? Ultimately, it is up to each shooter here to "compete" in the market place by providing the best value to his customer.

Here, we can only "demand" that participants conduct themselves in an ethical manner and uphold the standards we set for ourselves.

I'm sure we'll get around to a panel.... and I'm sure we'll evolve to a set of guidlines. Right now.... we need grow. And with that.... we need everyone's help.

JT

[Steve Demmitt]

I definitely think their are standards that should be withheld
even if it means you have to judge someones work
yes it is all subjective and probably shouldnt be done by just one person
but maybe by a panel of people selected by all the members here

I realize it can be a touchy thing that basically boils down to what you like, but lets all be honest here
quality > quantity when it comes to photos
and that should go for members too

[Jeff Wilson]

Hey! Welcome Steve, it's nice to see you here.

[Steve Demmitt]

thanks
same goes for you
its great to be here

[Steve Demmitt]

I just noticed that the pro directory page pretty much only lists motorsport photographers.
Is this by design? or just by sheer coincidence?

Not to discredit anyone who is listed, but in my opinion having a variety of different types of shooters is almost essential. It broadens the range of automotive photography in general and it shows just who is who in their respective fields.

I mean after all you break down the forums into different categories. Why not the photographers?

[Dennis Murray]

I just noticed that the pro directory page pretty much only lists motorsport photographers.
Is this by design? or just by sheer coincidence?

Not to discredit anyone who is listed, but in my opinion having a variety of different types of shooters is almost essential. It broadens the range of automotive photography in general and it shows just who is who in their respective fields.

I mean after all you break down the forums into different categories. Why not the photographers?

I'll guess it's by coincidence as that's the circle that JT travels in and knows. I'm sure it will grow over time.

[Jim Sykes]

You are welcome to apply and pay the cost to join.

Its just been the fact that (as Dennis said) JT knows more motorsports shooters and more importantly, no other shooters have bothered to try to become members yet. Go for it Steve.

[Mike Ditz]

I am not a "pro" member. i am just a "free" member. From what I understand the qualifications to get into the upper echelon are things that are about the photographer (like no indictments or convictions, being an ethical guy...), but not a judgment of his/her work? Is that correct?

MD

[John Thawley]

I am not a "pro" member. i am just a "free" member. From what I understand the qualifications to get into the upper echelon are things that are about the photographer (like no indictments or convictions, being an ethical guy...), but not a judgment of his/her work? Is that correct?

MD


The qualifications are that a.) another Pro Member sponsors you. b.) you pay the annual fee.

While on the face of things that may appear simple, it is our hope that those who are Pro Members recognize the importance of maintaining a "standard" in order to preserve a level of professionalism that they themselves wish to be associated with. We're all in this together.

I have said all along, we are not in the position of saying "you're not good enough." That said, however, if someone's work is clearly not of a professional level, and on par with the work of those that have come before them, we'll suggest they keep at it and apply again at a later date. I think it's safe to say that we know what is marketable work and what isn't. It is also important to the integrity of the process that the directory be reserved for working professionals. Again, the sponsoring member needs to look at the goals he or she shares with the group and make conciencious choices.

Regarding our early starters representing a heavy motorsports influence, Jimmy has it right. I come in contact with 50-100 motorsports shooters per week. Hence, they've discovered us sooner... and I think I've been able to convey the importance of our efforts face-to-face.

On that note, I'd like to appeal to those that have not applied to do so. I think we have an opportunity to create a viable resource. And... as I've said before, if you enjoy having APN as a resource, it benefits you to support it. It's not secret that we need money to run the site and grow it. We're not looking for charity. I think we've provided opportunities that reflect a value and return for your contirbution and hopefully, people will see the benefit of using one of the upgrade options to participate and show their appreciation for our efforts.

There are quite a few shooters in many categories that are more than qualified for Pro Member status. I hope you'll consider joining. I'd encourage others to use the Gallery upgrade or Upload feature to enhance your participation here. We encourage posting images... we encourage getting feed back on your work... both those upgrade packages make that easier to do and help grow APN too.

Please participate however you can and please let others know we're here.

JT

[Jacob Leveton]

The qualifications are that a.) another Pro Member sponsors you. b.) you pay the annual fee.


suggestion - we might want to add 'published'.

[Austin Langley]

suggestion - we might want to add 'published'.
Define published. Somebody could publish their own book and technically be "published."

[Austin Langley]

I recently looked on the Sports Shooter website to see what was required to become a member. In addition to a sponsor and paying the membership, you'd need to be approved by a council/committee or what have you. Maybe a committee for APN could be all of the pro members. You'd need a 2/3 vote to become official or something like that.

[Jacob Leveton]

published = in a magazine / book / some form of 'print'

if someone puts enough money into publishing a book of their own photographers, that counts in my book. The site is for 'working professionals', right? from the front page...

The Automotive Photographers Network was created as resource to promote this unique segment of photography and photographic arts. It is a community of professionals sharing knowledge, resources and the pursuit of excellence.

The definition of 'professional' means that they have been paid for their photography. Usually, that happens when you get published. i don't think it's too much to ask... not saying published to join the site, just published to join the 'pro network'

but you guys are the boss... it was just a suggestion.

[John Thawley]

The qualifications are that a.) another Pro Member sponsors you. b.) you pay the annual fee.

There are many people who have been paid yet may not be published.

Look, I appreciate the input. But, I'm hearing a whole lot of solutions to a problem that doesn't exist. As membership grows, we always have the option of raising the bar... if the need exists. SportsShooter only began requiring a sponsor about two years ago.

We won't be forming any committees. We won't be holding secret meetings or creating a special handshake. We'll welcome people who want to join, participate and promote the site. We will hold ALL participants of this site to the same standards of conduct... whether they're a professional or an amatuer.

We're not a club... we're a business. We're attempting to build a resource. Our ability to create a quality online environment will have a direct affect on our economic viabillity. Rest assured our standards are above selling out for a mere $45.

So.... The qualifications are that a.) another Pro Member sponsors you. b.) you pay the annual fee.

So who wanted to sign up? ;)

[Jacob Leveton]

no secret handshake?! awwwwww....

j/k ;)

i'll probably be signing up shortly.

[Steve Demmitt]

I am definitely interested in signing up. Of course I need someone to sponsor me first. =)

[Zerin Dube]

I'll vouch for you Steve... I'll tell JT in the morning :)

I am definitely interested in signing up. Of course I need someone to sponsor me first. =)

[John Thawley]

Yeah... I guess as an FYI, I'm a Pro Member. :) Feel free to submit a request to me for sponsorship. Just know that if I don't know you, I'm going to ask to see work and ask for some background information... and try my best to check it out. But, you'll find I don't believe in exclusion.

Our goal here is to establish a reasonable standard of integrity and quality. We're not out to become an elitist group of snobs.

JT

[Jim Sykes]

Our goal here is to establish a reasonable standard of integrity and quality. We're not out to become an elitist group of snobs.

JT

Dammit, we're not? That isnt what you told me before. Please remove my membership in the exclusive club if you would. :p