Myspace or No space? [Archive] - Automotive Photographers Network

Todd Corzett

11-23-2006, 02:09 AM

I keep my photography stuff off my MySpace page, and keep it on my photography site. I wouldn't be against linking between the two... but I wouldn't set-up my personal MySpace page as a photography site. IMO, you need to represent yourself professionally... and MySpace just doesn't hit me as professional for photography... especially with all the garbage that gets posted on there by others.

Now, I understand that many people from clubs/track days, etc. will be on MySpace... and by having them linked as friends may stir-up some business... but you'd really have to police the comments that get placed on the profile. Keep the photos of buddies giving 'the shocker' off, the "hey you wana get drunk this weekend punk", etc. comments off. If you had one page for your personal stuff, and one page for photography stuff only... sure, but keep it professional.

As valuable as SportsShooter? I wouldn't say that... not because of the number of people you reach, but because of the people who go there and why. People go to SportsShooter to see photography related things... people go to MySpace to hang-out with buddies. If you said something like OMP, ModelMayhem, etc... which are similar to MySpace in set-up (with people leaving comment, having friends, etc.) but based on photography, then I would agree. IMO, it's also about what most people are going to a service for, and MySpace is not about photographers or photography. Maybe I'm too old, but when I think "place to find a photographer"... MySpace isn't even on the list.

However you do it (MySpace or otherwise), just keep things professional. You may earn points with your buddies/regulars on MySpace, but those aren't the people you don't really need to be marketing to... it's the people who don't know you that you need to make a good first impression with, and many of the things on MySpace wouldn't impress me at all).

-Todd...

Edit - There are 52,895 people in the Photography group... and when looking at the list (1-40) the 9th profile has their image as a (what looks like drunk) guy laying on the bathroom floor next to a toilet... FAR from professional environment.

Jacob Leveton

11-23-2006, 04:24 AM

I have my personal myspace, and i have a myspace for my company. On the one for the company, I removed the top friends list and re-did it with all drivers from the series we cover, linked via images from our site to their myspace profiles.

For some reason, some advertisers / clients seem to LOVE myspace, and specifically the number of friends that are associated with your profile. I've been very specific in my targeting of friends for the profile, and now have 4600+ that are, as best as I can control, actually interested in our site. There are tons of profiles out there with 10k+ friends, but how many of them are models who add everybody / bands / etc? When clients find out that our profile has a high number of targeted friends, they almost get more excited about that than the amount of traffic our site pushes.

Additionally, Michael Vincent started out on myspace running 'special myspace deals' for his photography, and later started 'The Magazine" in coordination with a bunch of club parties, where he does a 'live' shoot at the event, then pics one or two models and photoshops them up to be on the 'cover' of the magazine for that month. It was a hugely successful promotion that led to him landing several real magazine gigs.

Mikey took pics with the right people (tom / tedskillet / forbidden / several other high-profile myspace people) and now is so busy that he charges $4k per shoot and has a month long waiting list. Really his only advertising was via myspace. It definately can work if you do it right.

It's all about how you do it.

Morgan J Segal

11-23-2006, 04:42 AM

Wow! Michael Vincent, Tom , tedskillet, forbidden Wow!

.....Never heard of them :confused:

Of course some advertisers/clients love myspace, their target audience is teens and twenty somethings, where better to reach that demographic?

Personally, I wouldn't touch myspace with a ten foot poll

Jacob, you work for Myspace no?

Jim Sykes

11-23-2006, 05:52 AM

If you want 20 yo kids with no money as your target audience...do it up.

If you want actual respectable clients, I'd stay away or do it very, very carefully.

John Thawley

11-23-2006, 05:57 AM

You could put your business card on the bulletin board at the super market.

Quote for the day... "Dress for the job you want... not the job you have."

I'm with Morgan.

Andrew Wheeler

11-23-2006, 02:19 PM

Don't get me started!!!

Daniel Buck

11-23-2006, 02:28 PM

Don't get me started!!!
yes, you have already started.

Austin Langley

11-23-2006, 02:53 PM

I'd hardly say the majority of people on myspace is "20 yo kids with no money." With 132,209,452 profiles, 80% of which is unique individuals, that's considerably more than a bunch of broke 20 year olds. There's no other medium for reaching such a broad audience. Of course this all depends on the target audience you're trying to reach. Most people under 30 have myspace accounts, including Editors, car owners, models, etc. Now that doesn't mean they're looking for photographers on myspace at that time, but if you add the right people, those editors most likely will do the myspace stumble which may bring them to your page. Although work isn't on their mind, but when they see your page, they might remember you, providing your work is good enough.

Myspace was built for networking. Specifically the now generation, not baby boomer's of yesteryear. I guess it really boils down to what you want to shoot.

Here's the link to Michael Vincent's page which got him well known: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=2637204
He's a fashion photographer which is probably why most of you haven't heard of him.

There was supposed to be a poll but i don't know what happened to it. From what I see, most are against it all together, but some feel if marketed correctly, myspace can be a viable marketing tool.

Todd Spoth

11-23-2006, 03:00 PM

well, i signed up and just lurked since mid 2003. i was within the first few thousand on the site, but since i never liked stuff like that well i just never filled out my profile. when I became the photographer for a professional dance company a few years ago I filled my profile out to keep up with the girls. i did and still to refuse to add all my close friends lol. after a lot of the girls started asking me to do some portraits for them i set up a separate myspace for my photos and it has worked flawlessly in bringing in money from fashion stuff etc.

ive also reunited with a lot of people i went to high school with as well, which is neat. ive written a huge essay about how high school reunions as we know it are over. everyone at my high school reunion will know everything about each other from myspace, facebook, et al.

i can understand some of the distaste, but i mean im 23, covered in tattoos, and curse like a sailor, so i guess when in rome! lol

also my boss (the owner of the dance studio i work for) has one and is on it 24/7, he actually contacts me and tells me about work via myspace, and i guarantee he has more money than 99% of people that post here. sure there are loads of 16 year old girls, but there are older, wealthy, potential clients there as well.

Morgan J Segal

11-23-2006, 03:50 PM

Here's the link to Michael Vincent's page which got him well known: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...ndid=263 7204
He's a fashion photographer which is probably why most of you haven't heard of him.
.

I like his photos (what I saw of them) but that website is a mess. There was so much chaos, I could not bear spend any time to look at more than a couple of photos.
He seems to be copying David LaChapelle's style though

Jim Sykes

11-23-2006, 03:51 PM

Most people under 30 have myspace accounts, including Editors, car owners, models, etc.

Great, why dont you post some links to the profiles of some well known editors that might actually lead to well paying jobs...of which I dont mean some drift event in a parking lot or taking a few photos of some skank draped over a Civic with more money thrown at it than a 911 Turbo. I mean, if your serious, then there should be some good leads on there, show them to us and I'll reconsider.

Here's the link to Michael Vincent's page which got him well known: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=2637204
He's a fashion photographer which is probably why most of you haven't heard of him.

Cool, so out of 132,209,452 people...one has made it work for him. Good for him. I wonder how many have been turned down for serious work because they tried to use Myspace as a portfolio for a potential client.

My biggest issue with that site is its soooo damn horrible to look at. Its so busy I dont see how anyone gets anything out of it. Its hard to read, I feel like I'm in a club trying to have a conversation with someone right in front of a stack of speakers. If it could be made clean and professional looking, I'd have a much more open mind about using it.

I also find it interesting on his site that he has that he is the official photographer for the Golden State Warriors, yet nowhere on their site or anywhere could I find a photo with his name linked to it except for that poster on his myspace account. He doesnt even have any shots on his real website.

But it does look like he is shooting what he wants...good for him. I would say he is more of the exception than the rule though.

Morgan J Segal

11-23-2006, 04:13 PM

ive also reunited with a lot of people i went to high school with as well, which is neat. ive written a huge essay about how high school reunions as we know it are over. everyone at my high school reunion will know everything about each other from myspace, facebook, et al.

Wait until your 15 and 20 year reunions and see if you're still hanging out on myspace.
When I was 23, I was still in touch with a lot of HS friends too and that was before Al Gore invented the internet

also my boss (the owner of the dance studio i work for) has one and is on it 24/7, he actually contacts me and tells me about work via myspace, and i guarantee he has more money than 99% of people that post here.

Hardly a good example, I am sure as a dance studio, his target audience is young girls

sure there are loads of 16 year old girls, but there are older, wealthy, potential clients there as well.

Looking to meet those 16 year old girls

Todd Corzett

11-23-2006, 06:21 PM

With 132,209,452 profiles, 80% of which is unique individuals, that's considerably more than a bunch of broke 20 year olds. There's no other medium for reaching such a broad audience. Of course this all depends on the target audience you're trying to reach.
This sounds to me like a good place for someone to go LOOK for clients... not to have them find you. Advertising on MySpace (if that's your target audience) may be a good way to reach lots of people... but to be just another one of the 132 million people, doesn't seem like a good way to stand-out.

if you add the right people, those editors most likely will do the myspace stumble which may bring them to your page. Although work isn't on their mind, but when they see your page, they might remember you, providing your work is good enough.
I'm not going to doubt that there may be some editors/clients on MySpace, but I prefer to not make them "do the myspace stumble" to find me. I am less interested in spending time trying to reach editors when work isn't on their mind... and more focused on being there when work IS on their mind.

Myspace was built for networking. Specifically the now generation, not baby boomer's of yesteryear. I guess it really boils down to what you want to shoot.
Networking is great, but targeting the "now generation" that just wants free photos to post on MySpace... doesn't sound like the work that I want to shoot. Will there be a diamond in the rough? Sure, but for the most part... it wouldn't be the audience that I'm trying to solicit for work.

but some feel if marketed correctly, myspace can be a viable marketing tool.I wouldn't necessarily say that it is a valuable marketing tool, but if done correctly it could be less damaging. My big issue with it is, the time/effort that you put into a MySpace page would be better spent doing something else... there are only so much time available, and MySpace doesn't seem to me like a valuable investment of time/effort.

I'm not going to say that it won't bring in clients, but I just question if the people it brings in are the people you want to be working with. For me, the only people that I've dealt with (photography wise) that were on MySpace were 1) people who stole images, and 2) people who wanted cheap (free) images for their page. Maybe my opinions will change when someone contacts me with real business... but in the meantime, I'll stick to more photography/motorsports related avenues of marketing.

-Todd...

PS - as for hanging out with friends and stuff, it is really handy... I actually used it quite a few times in the past week, but for photography stuff... just not my cup of tea.

Paul Hansen

11-23-2006, 08:06 PM

All the editors I know of that work with the major magazines have absolutely no free time for hanging out in any forum, much less myspace. The only way you are going to reach them is via email or phone. There may be lots of small independent magazine editors that do, however. But I would argue that they are just as likely to hang out here as on myspace, and in here there is a much more focused audience.

Myspace is a social network and as such, is likely more useful for people photography. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that - I am getting more and more modelling work along with the automotive. But even if I decided to concentrate on commercial model photography, I'd be directly approaching the editors of the relevant magazines in question - again, they simply do not have the time for the 24/7 myspace experience.

Cheers

Jim Sykes

11-24-2006, 12:41 AM

Mike Ditz

11-24-2006, 01:19 AM

My Space is not cool anymore. I just read the that Washington has discovered it and will be "very interested" in how to use Myspace and You tube during the upcoming elections.

Todd Corzett

11-24-2006, 01:44 AM

Now HERE is a good Myspace page for a photographer. Not sure how he did it, but he made it look very professional and he could still take advantage of the site. You could almost use that as your actual page.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=12746679

I agree... it looks great... and is a nice way to link-off to his personal page, but just take a look at the comments section:

How many Californians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

None, Californians don't screw in lightbulbs, they screw in hot tubs.

Amen !!

Happy thx giving :)

That is the type of stuff, along with all the "happy Thanksgiving" and "happy halloween" comments that should just stay off of a serious photography site. A place to enter comments and send the photographer email, sure... but they shouldn't be posted for the world (and most importantly, clients) to see. Given that comments like this are the point to MySpace, seems like other than a "www.myspace.com/joeblowphotography" web address... there isn't a reason to be there.

-Todd...

John Thawley

11-24-2006, 02:38 AM

Todd Spoth

11-24-2006, 03:52 PM

Wait until your 15 and 20 year reunions and see if you're still hanging out on myspace.
When I was 23, I was still in touch with a lot of HS friends too and that was before Al Gore invented the internet

Hardly a good example, I am sure as a dance studio, his target audience is young girls

Looking to meet those 16 year old girls

i never said id be "hanging out" on myspace in 10 years or whatever, but everyone is connected online, whether its myspace or something else. regardless of whether its a 10 or 20 year reunion, everyone nowadays will be like oh hi chris, yeah i saw your updated photos this morning. in the 60's and 70's reunions were all about surprises.

and my dance studio wasnt an example of a photographer, it was simply geared towards the comment about only early 20's with no money being on the site.

and yes, 16 year olds.

Jacob Leveton

11-24-2006, 05:02 PM

Wow! Michael Vincent, Tom , tedskillet, forbidden Wow!
.....Never heard of them :confused:

A lot of people have never heard of Morgan J Segal or John Thawley. Does that make them any less of a photographer?

Jacob, you work for Myspace no?
I work for Fox Interactive Media :p

If you want 20 yo kids with no money as your target audience...do it up.

If you want actual respectable clients, I'd stay away or do it very, very carefully.

Of the last 5 magazines I've sold work to, 4 of them have Myspace pages. Does that make them "not respectable" clients?

I like his photos (what I saw of them) but that website is a mess. There was so much chaos, I could not bear spend any time to look at more than a couple of photos.
He seems to be copying David LaChapelle's style though

But if it works for him.... let him be?

His website isn't my style. But everyone has different style, so let those who like his style work with him.

All the editors I know of that work with the major magazines have absolutely no free time for hanging out in any forum, much less myspace. The only way you are going to reach them is via email or phone. There may be lots of small independent magazine editors that do, however. But I would argue that they are just as likely to hang out here as on myspace, and in here there is a much more focused audience.

Myspace is a social network and as such, is likely more useful for people photography. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that - I am getting more and more modelling work along with the automotive. But even if I decided to concentrate on commercial model photography, I'd be directly approaching the editors of the relevant magazines in question - again, they simply do not have the time for the 24/7 myspace experience.

Cheers

You'd be surprised. I had no contact with a certain magazine, but they were on my list. They posted a bulletin asking for models for a certain show they were going to, as one dropped out. I happened to know of a girl who was looking for a job for that show. She worked for them, they were happy, we started a relationship.

Less than 2 years later, I will be shooting the Cover of their magazine next month. I have a shoot later today for their magazine. I had a feature and event coverage in the current magazine, and a feature in the previous magazine (as well as 2 features in the magazine that is currently at print). This magazine has more than 100k copies in their monthly circulation. I got the job as an indirect result of a relationship started on myspace.

Am I lucky ? sure. But I'll take it.
Now HERE is a good Myspace page for a photographer. Not sure how he did it, but he made it look very professional and he could still take advantage of the site. You could almost use that as your actual page.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=12746679

http://www.myspace.com/profilemaster - all the information on doing a "div" overlay is on that profile.

Great, why dont you post some links to the profiles of some well known editors that might actually lead to well paying jobs...of which I dont mean some drift event in a parking lot or taking a few photos of some skank draped over a Civic with more money thrown at it than a 911 Turbo. I mean, if your serious, then there should be some good leads on there, show them to us and I'll reconsider.

Some myspace accounts of fellow photographers (hope they don't mind):

http://www.myspace.com/friscomix
http://www.myspace.com/ciphergarage
http://www.myspace.com/mackeydesigns
http://www.myspace.com/munnellphotography
http://www.myspace.com/jo3design
http://www.myspace.com/stevedemmitt

I know the accounts for LowRider Magazine, C16 AutoStyle, Performance Auto and Sound, Rides magazine, 0-60 magazine, EuroTuner, and at least a few others are all used by the editors of those magazines at times. I also know that the editors of S3, Modified, Super Street, and several other publications all maintain personal accounts. I'm not so sure that you will find people willing to give the direct contact information for the people who employ them so that you can 'swoop' in on their jobs, but I assure you that they're out there. Just because you don't know about the 'success stories' doesn't mean they don't exist. If you'd like, I'd be glad to give you more of them. in fact, i'll put you in touch with the people who will tell you of their success on myspace.

There are plenty more that i could dig up. I know that several of them have gotten some decent-paying jobs directly because someone 'stumbled' on their myspace page. Since the account is free to setup, isn't any money generated from it an advantage? Granted, I won't be accepting $50 "shoot my headshots" gigs on myspace, but I guess i'm more of the 'better safe than sorry' crowd, in that i'd rather advertise myself in more places than not.

Myspace isn't for anyone. For those who want to use it - it can be a great tool for marketing yourself / your photography, if you go about it the right way. For those who don't - there are thousands of outlets to market yourself, if you choose not to use one of them, then that's completely up to you. But don't be so quick to knock those who do use that outlet, especially if it works for them.

I think I'm done with this thread.

Jacob Leveton

11-24-2006, 05:14 PM

I agree... it looks great... and is a nice way to link-off to his personal page, but just take a look at the comments section:

That is the type of stuff, along with all the "happy Thanksgiving" and "happy halloween" comments that should just stay off of a serious photography site. A place to enter comments and send the photographer email, sure... but they shouldn't be posted for the world (and most importantly, clients) to see. Given that comments like this are the point to MySpace, seems like other than a "www.myspace.com/joeblowphotography" web address... there isn't a reason to be there.

-Todd...

but posts like THESE - http://community.automotivephoto.net/forums/showthread.php?t=561

on an internet message board under your name which will probably come up in a google search are ok?! Seems like the same thing to me.

I don't get the distinction. you CAN regulate the comments section on your myspace page...

Morgan J Segal

11-24-2006, 06:16 PM

A lot of people have never heard of Morgan J Segal or John Thawley. Does that make them any less of a photographer?

I never said that, but you shot off their names like we are supposed to know who they were.

But if it works for him.... let him be?

His website isn't my style. But everyone has different style, so let those who like his style work with him.

I said I liked his work! I just noted that it appears he is basically copying LaChappelles style in case you thought his work was new and original

Some myspace accounts of fellow photographers (hope they don't mind):

http://www.myspace.com/friscomix
http://www.myspace.com/ciphergarage
http://www.myspace.com/mackeydesigns
http://www.myspace.com/munnellphotography
http://www.myspace.com/jo3design
http://www.myspace.com/stevedemmitt

That doesn't answer Jimmy's question

And they're all twenty somethings, which just emphasizes the points being made about the age groups on MS.

And what high paying clients did these guys find on Myspace?

I know the accounts for LowRider Magazine, C16 AutoStyle, Performance Auto and Sound, Rides magazine, 0-60 magazine, EuroTuner, and at least a few others are all used by the editors of those magazines at times. I also know that the editors of S3, Modified, Super Street, and several other publications all maintain personal accounts.

All magazines that target younger audiences and tend not to pay well. Paying well (and as Jimmy put it, not having to take shots of skanks draped over a Civic LOL ) is what the others here are referring to as "respectable clients".

I think I'm done with this thread.

Awe come on, this is the first interesting debate in while

Obviously this is a generational gap thing, you shouldn't be surprised by the answers you're getting.

Morgan J Segal

11-24-2006, 06:33 PM

i never said id be "hanging out" on myspace in 10 years or whatever, but everyone is connected online, whether its myspace or something else. regardless of whether its a 10 or 20 year reunion, everyone nowadays will be like oh hi chris, yeah i saw your updated photos this morning. in the 60's and 70's reunions were all about surprises. .

Internet or not, unless you seek out these people, the reunion will still be full of surprises.

.
and my dance studio wasnt an example of a photographer, it was simply geared towards the comment about only early 20's with no money being on the site.

and yes, 16 year olds.

I realized it was not a photographer example. My point was that the owner of the studio, despite his age and money, is likely on MS because his business is targeting the young people on the site (or perhaps he just likes young immature girls and/or boys and we will see him on Dateline in the near future LOL)

Jim Sykes

11-24-2006, 06:38 PM

Of the last 5 magazines I've sold work to, 4 of them have Myspace pages. Does that make them "not respectable" clients?

Possibly. If they are "Sluts with Sleds" magazine, then yes, I dont see them as respectable.

You'd be surprised. I had no contact with a certain magazine, but they were on my list. They posted a bulletin asking for models for a certain show they were going to, as one dropped out. I happened to know of a girl who was looking for a job for that show. She worked for them, they were happy, we started a relationship.

Less than 2 years later, I will be shooting the Cover of their magazine next month. I have a shoot later today for their magazine. I had a feature and event coverage in the current magazine, and a feature in the previous magazine (as well as 2 features in the magazine that is currently at print). This magazine has more than 100k copies in their monthly circulation. I got the job as an indirect result of a relationship started on myspace.

Am I lucky ? sure. But I'll take it.

And how much you going to make from all that work. You seem to work an awful lot for a guy that still needs to keep another real job. I wonder why that is.

Also, look at your story seriously. Did they find you on Myspace? Was it due to your "marketing" on myspace?

No, you were reading it and put a friend in contact with them. Do you really think that wouldnt have happened if you didnt have a myspace account? Looks more to me that it wasnt because of what we are talking about here that myspace worked for you, its simply becauase you knew someone else that could help them. And for what they were looking for, it made sense to go there. By your story, they werent looking for a photographer there.

Some myspace accounts of fellow photographers (hope they don't mind):

http://www.myspace.com/friscomix
http://www.myspace.com/ciphergarage
http://www.myspace.com/mackeydesigns
http://www.myspace.com/munnellphotography
http://www.myspace.com/jo3design
http://www.myspace.com/stevedemmitt

That isnt what I asked. I wanted to see the profiles and the pages of all these so-called respectable editors that are surfing myspace everyday looking for photographers.

I know the accounts for LowRider Magazine, C16 AutoStyle, Performance Auto and Sound, Rides magazine, 0-60 magazine, EuroTuner, and at least a few others are all used by the editors of those magazines at times. I also know that the editors of S3, Modified, Super Street, and several other publications all maintain personal accounts.

So does the ALMS, does that mean they are looking for photographer there..NO. It means they want to have folks get interested in their series or magazine and that isnt a bad place to do it. Would they be looking for employees or people to work for them there...no way. They will go to the qualified and professional photographers (or whatever they are looking for) where they should be, places like Sports Shooter, Monster...whatever.

Just because you don't know about the 'success stories' doesn't mean they don't exist. If you'd like, I'd be glad to give you more of them. in fact, i'll put you in touch with the people who will tell you of their success on myspace.

Why dont you suggest they come here and explain it to us so we can all learn something.

I'm not doubting that some folks have found "success" but I guess it also depends on how you define success.

You also have to listen to the arguments here as well. No one has said that you cannot possibly make some money off Myspace, but it depends on what you want to go for. If you define success as working for low budget girly magazines or shooting hooptie imports on the days off from your regular job, I'm sure Myspace is the perfect place to be. If you are looking to gain experience shooting girls that are also trying as hard as they can to be on the covers of the same magazines...then Myspace is probably the place to be.

However, if your goals are a little bit higher, then I dont think Myspace is the place to be and I dont think that the people that can get you to those highrer goals are surfing Myspace looking for photographers.

Jacob Leveton

11-24-2006, 07:03 PM

jim - the vocabulary you use towards these magazines and this topic in general is noted.

I have a day job because it gives me a comfortable living and things like benefits, retirement, etc. I shoot photos because it is what I enjoy doing. I could probably quit one or the other, but I like having my cake and eating it too ;) not that it is any of your business....

My goals are to be right where I'm at. Shooting 3-4 features a month, traveling to the events I want to attend, and making decent money. I'm young. I have a college degree. I'm living a life I enjoy. I could go for an extra $1k a month or so, but I don't need much more.

Is that a problem?

Todd Corzett

11-24-2006, 07:33 PM

I don't think that the people that can get you to those highrer goals are surfing Myspace looking for photographers.
This is the point that I am trying to make... I do not believe that people go to MySpace looking to find a photographer. Yes, there are situations that because of a connection made on MySpace you may get work... but that's no different than meeting someone in a bar, club, or supermarket. If I have to choose between marketing in the pits/paddock at a race... or at a fan party afterwards... I'm going to the pits/paddock! Now, if I have time to go to the party, and just happened to get into a situation to do business, I would... but if I had 2 hours to spend marketing... it wouldn't be at the party.

I want to put my marketing effort into the locations where the people who are looking for photographers are looking. For me, I've put some effort into making my website search engine friendly (probably similar effort to what it would take to make a MySpace page for my business). Since my page update in April... I have had 120 people link into my site from search engines. The vast majority of them were people searching "Todd Corzett" or "Unit One Studios"... they, because they already know who I am, were not my target audience for the upgrade. Now, what I find valuable... I have had 68 people (over half) link into my site from search engines using something else. Before the update, I did not have a single "new" visitor from search engines in the first 3 months that I was checking stats on my website. This is the stuff that I am after with this part of my marketing efforts... introducing myself to the people who are looking. The real question will become, did it result in any sales? Yes, two that I know for sure (and both with teams/sponsors)... and several other potential opportunities (things I put in bids for, but did not get... or chose not to bid for).

The MySpace-like environments would be my first place to look for finding new/cheap models. More than likely I'd go to ModelMayhem first, but MySpace wouldn't be bad either. But, I think the key here is that I'm looking to get something for nothing (or as little as possible)... if I wanted a pro (that I would pay like one) I'd go to an agency or similar. If I was a model (:eek: ok, everyone stop laughing) would I have a ModelMayhem site? yes... would I have a MySpace page? yes (I'd love to have my ego stroked by all the people who would want to be my "friend")... but if I was serious about getting (well) paying gigs I would go to an agency (and invest my energy at that level of the game). Not that MySpace isn't an option, but just not the best option for what I would be after.

-Todd...

Jim Sykes

11-24-2006, 09:17 PM

jim - the vocabulary you use towards these magazines and this topic in general is noted.

Damn, you mean they wont hire me now? :mad:

Morgan J Segal

11-24-2006, 09:49 PM

Damn, you mean they wont hire me now? :mad:

I'll do it for $1515 It will be worth the extra $10 bucks for them not have to deal with Jimmy ;)

Dennis Murray

11-24-2006, 10:44 PM

I think marketing on Myspace and the like have their place...but it is hard to determine what that is. I don't think most magazine editors are going there looking for referrals for photographers...there's enough shooters out there with established reputations that they don't need to. They can ask around and find someone.

Perhaps when I get my own school photo contract, I'll have some sort of presence, marketing, or product for the MySpace user. I know for a fact that a lot of the kids I shoot in high school sports have pages there.

That said....I do have a basic presence on LinkedIn, which is a bit more mature of an audience and approach IMO.

So what of Second Life? There must be a reason many retail oriented companies are putting their own islands there. Does this fall under the same umbrella of judgement?

Todd Spoth

11-24-2006, 10:57 PM

Internet or not, unless you seek out these people, the reunion will still be full of surprises.

.

I realized it was not a photographer example. My point was that the owner of the studio, despite his age and money, is likely on MS because his business is targeting the young people on the site (or perhaps he just likes young immature girls and/or boys and we will see him on Dateline in the near future LOL)

if i was uptight and took things the wrong way, i may be offended by that. i mentioned him (my boss and a good friend of mine) as an example of someone well into their 40's that is successful and has a page on myspace, and for you to say that he may be involved in some sort of questionable activity with minors (even jokingly is in horrible taste IMO...even worse than dare i say...HAVE A PROFILE ON THE MYSPACES. good thing im not too old and jaded, yet.

Morgan J Segal

11-24-2006, 10:59 PM

if i was uptight and took things the wrong way, i may be offended by that. i mentioned him (my boss and a good friend of mine) as an example of someone well into their 40's that is successful and has a page on myspace, and for you to say that he may be involved in some sort of questionable activity with minors (even jokingly is in horrible taste IMO...even worse than dare i say...HAVE A PROFILE ON THE MYSPACES. good thing im not too old and jaded, yet.

:rolleyes:

Mike Ditz

11-24-2006, 11:54 PM

"Possibly. If they are "Sluts with Sleds" magazine.."

Now is that online only or can I get it at my local newsstand..:p

Mike Ditz

11-25-2006, 12:02 AM

I'll do it for $1515 It will be worth the extra $10 bucks for them not have to deal with Jimmy ;)

I'll do it for $1525, then hire JT to do it for $1500 and pocket that saaweet profit of 25 buckaroos!
Wait a minute, i forgot what I just agreed to do, was it the Sluts and Sleds cover shot of Todd?:eek:

Jim Sykes

11-25-2006, 01:33 AM

I'll do it for $1515 It will be worth the extra $10 bucks for them not have to deal with Jimmy ;)

touche :D

Jim Sykes

11-25-2006, 01:41 AM

There must be a reason many retail oriented companies are putting their own islands there. Does this fall under the same umbrella of judgement?

No, I dont think its the same at all. Its about marketing to those that you want to market to. As a photographer I dont want to market to that crowd since they dont have anything for me there. I also dont want to seem like someone willing to take whatever he can find from a crowd like that to the people that I DO want to impress. I dont want them to see me as a Myspace kind of shooter, I want to be seen as something above that.

However, if I had a magazine that catered to that crowd, or if I had a retail store that had things that crowd wanted, or if I had a racing series that wanted to include that crowd into my audience, its a great place to be.

There isnt anything wrong with marketing to that crowd if that is what you want, but from a photography standpoint I dont believe that is where you want to be if you want to be seen as something more than the 20 something crowd that hangs out there.

Jacob Leveton

12-10-2006, 12:23 AM

I had to bump this topic because...

I like his photos (what I saw of them) but that website is a mess. There was so much chaos, I could not bear spend any time to look at more than a couple of photos.
He seems to be copying David LaChapelle's style though

Funny you should mention him. Guess what I saw today when I signed on?

http://lads.myspace.com/promotions/06_12/MS-61206-04-DLC-TD-US/east-lachap.gif
http://www.myspace.com/davidlachapellestudio

Looks like David LaChapelle is a paying advertiser on myspace. Looks like he found it to be not just a good marketing tool, but one that he feels is worthy of paying for. Read his 'about me' section...

Hello Everyone,

I am having a photoshoot contest on MySpace. I will be flying one of you friends to my LA studio where I will shoot your main MySpace photo.

MySpace proposed that I should do a contest and I thought it was a good idea, being that MySpace is more relevant than any magazine right now.

Beauty comes in all shapes and sizes and I will tailor the photo to you

All you need to do to enter is be my MySpace friend and to click on the banner above my page. Once you get to the contest page you will be asked to submit about 100 words as to why I should shoot you.

I am looking for the most creative, honest individual that would work in my photographs

Any thoughts on that?

Jim Sykes

12-10-2006, 01:06 AM

Yeah, its good for business considering this statement:

MySpace proposed that I should do a contest and I thought it was a good idea, being that MySpace is more relevant than any magazine right now.

I'd say in this case, its good business and if MySpace asked the same of me, I'd do it too. Doesnt mean that I would use it as a marketing tool to reach other clients though. In this case MySpace IS the client, hes not using it to LOOK for clients. ;)

Morgan J Segal

12-10-2006, 01:19 AM

Yeah, its good for business considering this statement:

I'd say in this case, its good business and if MySpace asked the same of me, I'd do it too. Doesnt mean that I would use it as a marketing tool to reach other clients though. In this case MySpace IS the client, hes not using it to LOOK for clients. ;)

Plus One!

Justin Haugen

12-10-2006, 01:24 AM

Daniel Buck

12-10-2006, 01:39 AM

How about everyone agree to disagree =) That's not allowed on the internet. Didn't anyone tell you?

:D

John Thawley

12-10-2006, 06:50 AM

I love this debate because everyone is never going to meet in the middle =)

But I have total Deja Vu because this pointless arguement was already dissected months ago on the former AP boards and I knew exactly the responses I would read and everybody played their roles out as I expected.

How about everyone agree to disagree =)

Say you are using myspace as some form of networking and marketing, lets just not discuss it. Frankly, I don't care what anyone does with their myspace page or how they are marketing their work. Do whatever works best for you. Do as much as you can, as best as you can, with as much zeal as you can. Most importantly, don't give a rats ass what anyone else thinks about it, if it is working for you. Don't sit on such a high horse and pass judgement on the stigmas associated with our age disparities. If there is one thing I love about being 23, is I have my best years ahead of me. Lets see some sensitivity to the different situations every person is facing with their careers and lifestyles. It's disheartening to see such creative genius on this forum wasting negative energy on discussing the viability of myspace to a bunch of us 20 somethings. There is so much more I want to learn from people here that doesn't involve myspace.

Cheers!

Perhaps you should go back and read the original post and inquiry.

But regarding your comments:

Don't sit on such a high horse and pass judgement on the stigmas associated with our age disparities. If there is one thing I love about being 23, is I have my best years ahead of me.

I'm 56... and I still consider my best years ahead of me... so what's your point? It seems to me "passing judgement" is a two way street at best. Why is your youth interpreted as an advantage?

Lets see some sensitivity to the different situations every person is facing with their careers and lifestyles. It's disheartening to see such creative genius on this forum wasting negative energy on discussing the viability of myspace to a bunch of us 20 somethings.

Hmmmm.... Justin... Sensitivity? What.... you want us to sit here and lie .... tell people everything's all good and not to worry.

Austin asked the question. People gave answers... GOOD answers. But some didn't like the answers. So now... they are bad guys and need to be more sensitive?

Why do you keep positioning this discussion based on age? It's almost like you're saying, "hey... we're young and dumb, leave us alone."

As far as coming here to learn, you don't have the exclusive position of deciding what's worth discussing and what's not worth discussing. YOU DO have the option of deciding what's worth reading.

What I do find consistent about this discussion and previous discussions on AP is how often younger members ask advice and then get defensive... even pissed when they don't like the answer they hear.

I've never looked at the age breakdown on the site. My friends will tell you (laughingly) I have no idea how old I am. A pretty girl is a pretty girl regardless of her age. Good music is good music, regardless of the genre. A cool car is a cool car. My girlfriend is younger than my daughter.... so frankly, I don't buy into this "age" or generational BS.

So regardless of age, what I find to be the most ridiculous scenario witnessed... both here and on the old AP, is the ridiculous posture adopted by users who are admittedly young and/or inexperienced, going off when they don't get the answer they want.

I don't like sugar-coating my posts. If you ask a question of a "pro" on this board, you're going to get a straight answer. Some of the guys answering your questions bill $1000-$1500 per day. I'd say having that pool of knowledge is a pretty nice luxury. But I will tell you, they're not here to be challenged. And, I'd suggest people give them the respect of thier accomplishments. If you don't like the answer... do with it as you please. But don't challenge these people. It's disrespectful and you'll find yourself losing out in the long run.

I don't like to label or stereotype. But I have to be honest, I watch posts here closely. I can read these boards like a book. I note the User Name, the questions, the answers and THE WORK. And, I also follow the progress. I know who listens... I know who posts for the sake of posting. I know who can shoot and who cant'. I see people posting advice that have no business posting advice. I see people who are friends outside the board.... I've even noticed one friend holding another back and passing on "atta-boys" to a guy who can shoot the lights out over hime.

So, in the end.... read the comments, note the advice, and research the people who are giviing it.Qualify the advice.... and STOP assinging age as an excuse.

MYSPACE is a WASTE. There's nothing negative about that comment nor did it sap my creative energy. It's an answer to a question. This is a business. And I don't care if you're a photographer or what you're doing, BUSINESS IS BUSINESS. It doesn't change. And.... as much as I work at becoming a better photographer, what has enabled me to do more and get more in this business is my ability to market myself. I don't care how good of a photographer you think you are, in the end, you have to be able to market yourself.

Justin Haugen

12-10-2006, 02:08 PM

I didn't want to get into the age discussion, but throughout several posts I kept reading time after time

"If you want 20 yo kids with no money as your target audience...do it up."
"And they're all twenty somethings, which just emphasizes the points being made about the age groups on MS."

As for this two way street, why is it not appropriate for me to discuss the age disparity, but alright for everyone else?

But don't challenge these people. It's disrespectful and you'll find yourself losing out in the long run.

Why does this feel like some kind of threat? I've met some board members in person. I've shaken hands with gusto and been cordial and respectful. I've even met one of two of the John Thawley's (the tall one who was shooting Rolex cup in Phoenix last may, don't think it was you) and dispite my hip hop inspired attire, hopefully left a lasting impression that went beyond my age and warddrobe.

Why do you keep positioning this discussion based on age? It's almost like you're saying, "hey... we're young and dumb, leave us alone."

Sooo...conversely. You're old and smart, bother the shit out of you?!

Again, agree to disagree. Not trying to sway your opinions into my corner. I actually agree with a lot of the things about myspace you have said and never even mentioned my stance on the matter. My stance was one of neutrality to help people take step back from their words and maybe realize everyone is different and uses the tools available to them however they can. Admittedly I have a myspace page, and I never pass the link on to people as a means of representing my work. I have some work on it, it represents me as a person and as a growing professional, but in no way do I think my myspace page will win me any big clients. If anything, it's a portal to my other works with links to my websites. I have a grab bag of acquaintances ranging from friends to industry contacts (my target industry that is) and some business interests. That's about how far i'll take it. My online presence is respectful and reflective of my real life persona. The internet is just an extension of it. Besides, overspecialization is a weakness. I think it's stupid to rely solely myspace as your means of professional representation, but it can supplement it.

Kind and venerable John Thawley, with the utmost respect I will shake your hand someday and smile and introduce myself, and I won't feel uncomfortable about it even if I challenge you time and time again, because there is respect for the inredible work everyone does here. =) I know you could write a book on how the industry has changed in your experience. I hope someday I'm also in your position of passing on wisdom, but with the aforementioned sensitivity that you don't think is necessary. The world isn't always so dog-eat-dog, and if I want to think my youth is an advantage and that everything is okay and I don't have to worry, I'll reflect on my current stupidity when I'm older =)

John Thawley

12-10-2006, 02:31 PM

Well, Justin... here's the difference, the "age" post you quote refers to the MySpace market. Your references are directed to ages of those here on the board as if it is "us against them."

There was certainly no threat... but, I'll tell you point blank, there are member's here who's attitudes will get them ignored. It's human nature.

Finally.... why the comment about my being old and smart? What does old have to do with it? Now you're the one being young and stupid.

Look, I don't care if you shake my hand... I don't care what you wear... frankly, I don't even care where or how you market your business. What I do care about is the members of this board that contribute. They know who they are... and if you're having a hard time figuring it out, they're the successful ones. ;)

And by the way, I do agree to disagree... and I take notes. :)

JT

Justin Haugen

12-10-2006, 02:59 PM

John Thawley

12-10-2006, 04:11 PM

Lets hug it out :D lol, j/k.

Question. I wondering if anyone here can chime in on what they were doing when they were 20-23. What kind of gigs had you landed? Where were you professionaly? What was your biggest accomplishment at that point in your life? Also, would your 20-23 former self argue with your current self?

Thought you'd never ask. LOL

I was always rebellious... but then when I realized that was keeping me from succeeding, I stopped listening to my rebel cheerleading friends and started disecting and emulating what the successful people were doing. Sure... I didn't want to sell out... I wanted to make my own mark... but I stopped yelling and started listening. I started figuring out how to win.

At 17 I was out of highschool and dodging the draft. :) I got into the clothing business... and my "attitude" led me away from high-end clothing to bell bottoms and boutique sportswear. After several years of watching my contemporaries count out pennies to pay for a pair of bell bottoms, I realized I was NOT a sales man or a clothing person... I WAS A CLERK. Fortunately, I had a built a reputation for taste and styel and was recruited by another company... at 21 I was back selling higher end clothing and building a clientele.

At 23 years old, I opened my own store in Birmingham Michigan and was ranked as one of the top -10 stores in the country... not by volume, mind you, but from high-end, nothing but the best, taste and clientele. Bottom line... if you wanted the best you came to me. (FYI, daddy didn't buy the store for me... we were first generation imigrants with ZERO money.)

The bonus was the learning... I was surrounded by successful people who shared their knowledge. While I'm no longer in that business, I've used what I learned through out my life.

And the number one thing I learned? When you have the good fortune to talk with successful people... LISTEN.

And FYI... I still challenge myself everyday... I challenge my ideas, my philosophies and my methods. I look at everything and ask "how can I do this better or more efficiently?" And I ask... "is this how you want people to perceive your work?"

Michael Jordan was once asked why he always appeared immaculately dressed... his repsonse was very insightful. He said: "I know that in the crowd there may be a father and his son or a fan that may be seeing Micheal Jordan for the very first time or the only time in their life. To me, I owe it to them that they see get to see Michael Jordan at his best."

Not a bad philosophy.

JT

Justin Haugen

12-10-2006, 04:33 PM

see I knew you had some sensitivity. I just had to ask the right question =) I'm over my rebellious phase, my ears are open but my mouth just flaps simultaneously, lol.

John Thawley

12-10-2006, 04:38 PM

see I knew you had some sensitivity. I just had to ask the right question =) I'm over my rebellious phase, my ears are open but my mouth just flaps simultaneously, lol.

Just for the record, by the way... I advertised my store by running full page ads in Playboy, Sports Illustrated, GQ and Esquire. I NEVER ran an ad in the local "club scene" papers. ;)

JT

Jacob Leveton

12-10-2006, 05:20 PM

I'd say in this case, its good business and if MySpace asked the same of me, I'd do it too. Doesnt mean that I would use it as a marketing tool to reach other clients though. In this case MySpace IS the client, hes not using it to LOOK for clients. ;)

actually, i'll translate that for ya, since i have some inside info

david - *calls myspace* - hey guys, i want to advertise with you.
ad guy - ok, cool. what did you have in mind?
david - i dunno, what do you offer?
ad guy - well, we could run some ads, and get some hits your way. Or, what might be smarter is if you do some sort of 'contest', where you 'give away' a photoshoot or something
david - ooh, a contest sounds good.
ad guy - cool, i'll send the invoice.

guess what? a 'contest' costs more, and gives the ad guy more comission. He got UPSOLD :D the fact that he's suggesting that myspace came to him is pretty funny to me.

MYSPACE is a WASTE. There's nothing negative about that comment nor did it sap my creative energy. It's an answer to a question.
That's your opinion. ironically, you go on to say...

This is a business. And I don't care if you're a photographer or what you're doing, BUSINESS IS BUSINESS. It doesn't change. And.... as much as I work at becoming a better photographer, what has enabled me to do more and get more in this business is my ability to market myself. I don't care how good of a photographer you think you are, in the end, you have to be able to market yourself.

You focus so much on marketing, yet state that myspace is a waste? Who says that someone can't use Myspace as a valuable marketing tool? myspace is like any other tool of communication - a webpage, a cell phone, an email, an advertisement in a phone book / magazine / news letter, etc. If you know how to use the tools that are available to you, and you use them well, you can benefit from them

And the number one thing I learned? When you have the good fortune to talk with successful people... LISTEN.

Wow, that sounds like a commandment, not a suggestion. Sounds like you expect everyone to LISTEN to what you have to say and take it for the gospel. I think it's safe to say that some of the methods you used to get to where you are aren't universally adaptable to all other markets. I don't want to be a grand-am / rolex cup / indy car / nascar photographer. I don't want to shoot for motor trend or racer magazine. My target market has a different demographic, different clients, different budget, and even different tastes in editing, etc. That means that the opportunities i come across are completely different from the opportunities that you came across when you were ceveloping your photography. I have a lot of respect for the elders on here, but not all of their advice applies directly to the market I work with.

This discussion will never end, but I think it's much larger than just 'myspace'. hopefully the thread will open some eyes / ears / minds on this board.... hopefully....

John Thawley

12-10-2006, 05:28 PM

Wow, that sounds like a commandment, not a suggestion. Sounds like you expect everyone to LISTEN to what you have to say and take it for the gospel.

I have NO idea how you came to that conclusion. But, in your case, you'd do well to listen.

Jacob Leveton

12-10-2006, 06:14 PM

I have NO idea how you came to that conclusion. But, in your case, you'd do well to listen.

thanks for the put down. glad you're one of the administrators.

Morgan J Segal

12-10-2006, 06:58 PM

Jacob

Do you really think LaChapelle is trying to find new clients on myspace? I doubt it.
It is more likely he is trying to broaden his appeal to a younger audience which will make him more valuable to clients.

Austin asked for opinions, and he got them, sorry it was not what you wanted to hear, but really... tough shit! :rolleyes:

Mike Ditz

12-10-2006, 07:19 PM

I've learned a few things about marketing.

If you have $2000 to spend on marketing, spend $20 on 100 people rather than $1 on 2000.

In your marketing, don't go for the shotgun effect, be a sniper. Chose your targets carefully and pick the high value ones. Randomness doesn't work as well as research.

The funny thing about the old guy/young guy thing is that when I was 20-23, the only old guys (like over 30) I had contact with was my boss. Here in the internet world it's all mixed up so the people marketing in myspace are mixed in with the Blackbook / Workbook crowd. Frankly I'm yet to be convinced that either works reliably.

And FWIW when I was 23 I was working for a guy who pretty much changed a major facet of automotive photography, when I was 20 I was assisiting at various car studios in Troy and Detroit, Mi.

I'm sure of one thing, I couldn't afford a sweater at Thawleys store....LOL

M

Todd Corzett

12-10-2006, 07:35 PM

I wondering if anyone here can chime in on what they were doing when they were 20-23. What kind of gigs had you landed? Where were you professionaly? What was your biggest accomplishment at that point in your life? Also, would your 20-23 former self argue with your current self?
Given that 23 was SOO long ago, now that I'm at the ripe old age of 26... things are not really any different (I wouldn't really argue with myself about much).

What was I doing when I was 20-23? College. Work was all in my field (Biology), and nothing else really. I started seriously doing photography in 2003 (I was 23). When I say seriously, I'm talking about going to an event for the sole reason of photography (no friends, no beer, etc.). I was doing some photography before then, but it wasn't really serious. Where was I professionally... I wasn't even started, but I wasn't even thinking photography at that point. What kind of gigs had I landed? Given that I seriously started in '03, I'd say none (although I had shot a few formals for my Fraternity).

Now... to remove the age from all of this (because I don't think age matters at all... although, it's unfortunate that if you are under 18 you have some limitations)... I started doing photography seriously in 2003... shooting two events (LBGP (http://www.unitonestudios.com/gallery/motorsports/2003/CART/long_beach/gallery_1/03_LBGP1.html) and the Monterey GP (http://www.unitonestudios.com/gallery/motorsports/2003/CART/laguna_seca/gallery_1/03_LS1_ChampCar.html)) on my own from spectator areas to prove that I had the 'right stuff'. I pulled a few images (which can be seen at the links) and put together a simple website on my own domain. Why did I choose this route? Because it is what I viewed as being professional... yes, I could have thrown together a geocities page or something, but that's not what I wanted to be... I wanted to be a professional.

(This is where it becomes relevant here) I made it look like I was something other than a 23 year old 'punk kid' with a camera... remember, it's not what the truth is, but rather what the impression is. It doesn't matter what people here think about MySpace, but if everyone you want to work for thinks that all the people there are 'punk kids' then you have a tough road to travel. IMO, emulate those who you want to be like... while there are times to be unique/different... for the most part, what worked in the past should work in the future. Use that as a starting place.

Ok, back to my story... After putting together my website showing what I could do, I started contacting people in the industry (mostly other photographers and motorsports websites) asking questions. I listened to their advice (I didn't take it as scripture, but used it to determine my own plan... I didn't ask for advice and then criticize those who give it when I didn't like what they said... I took it all in and formulated my own strategy. I determined what I wanted to do, and did it.

One of the people that I spoke with didn't have anything, but suggested I talk with someone else... so I did. They had an opening to shoot the AMLS event at Sears Point (http://www.unitonestudios.com/gallery/motorsports/2003/ALMS/sears_point/03_SP_ALMS.html), which was an event that I hadn't planned on covering, so did it. I made sure to go out of my way to make a great first impression... and it paid-off in the long run. Now, that was the only event that outlet had room for, but I really wanted to go to the ALMS event at Laguna Seca. I contacted several other websites, and eventually was able to find someone who needed coverage of the Miata Challenge (which is far from glamorous)... I used the opportunity to shoot as much as I could (Gallery (http://www.unitonestudios.com/gallery/motorsports/2003/ALMS/laguna_seca/03_LS_ALMS.html)).

In the off season I made the effort to go out and shoot as many events as I could, including motorcycle testing (which is something that I'd never done before). That year I shot 3 testing sessions and 9 events, ranging from NASCAR, AMA/WSBK, Champ Car, NHRA, and ALMS. The next year I shot 2 testing sessions and 11 events. This last year I shot 2 testing sessions and 13 events, including the 24 Hours of Le Mans... IMO, not bad for only three years of doing this on the side (regardless of age).

IMO, if there is a community you want to become a part of... the LAST thing you should do is start-off by criticizing what they do/have done. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be different and unique, or change things, but you need to do both... do the 'norm' AND the different/unique other stuff (like MySpace if you choose).

Age really has nothing to do with it though... being professional does, and much of the 'ish that is being flung back and forth in this thread is far from professional. Everyone has their own opinions (they are entitled to that) and can voice their opinions... so take it for what they are, opinions, and make up your own decision. There is no right or wrong.

-Todd...

PS - Group hug! :)