Frustration + Venting = This Post (Client Related)

[Erik Anderson]

I have a steady client who calls me every 6-8 weeks with a new car to shoot. I've shot seven cars for him in the past year or so and he always indicated that he's been more than satisfied with my work.

After sending him the samples for the last two shoots, he commented that the images didn't 'artistically grab him' which frankly I wasn't surprised at. We shot his yellow 360 in front of his house and blue Diablo just down the road in a church parking lot under the premise that these are for sale/Ebay stuff, not automotive art. I did as best I could with what I had and did try to take some art types shots, but focused on getting the standard sellable shots (front, rear, sides, 3/4 F/R, interior, engine bay, manuals/recordss, wheels, etc) as that was the purpose of the shoot as described to me. To boot is was cloudy and although reflections weren't a problem, the colors were a bit dull to begin with.

He called me up last week to shoot his grigio avlon metallic Murcielago and black Jag which I did this weekend. The Jag was for sale and I spent literally 10 minutes doing the standard shots while it was more like 1.5 hours with the Murci. I only got that after telling him that to move the car around, get the right light, setup, etc was the minimum. He wanted to give me an hour to shoot both cars, which as least for me, isn't even half the time I need to get 'the' shots. To note, it was pretty cloudy again with the sun only popping out occassionally

I sent him four quick edits of the Murci last night which I thought were strong since I knew he'd be asking for images ASAP. He comes back this morning saying once again he didn't feel artistically groped, but for some reason, he thought the Jag photos were great.:rolleyes: It has a barn in the backround which is semi interesting, but there is tract housing surrounding this place, and without an interesting background (or massive photoshop) a supercar parking infront of cookie cutter houses just isn't flattering to me.

Part of my frustration comes from the fact that he won't drive farther than down the street to this parking lot for a shoot. There is an abundance of locations better than what he'll drive to, but he just flat out refuses. I know that we as photographers have to be creative with what we are given, but I feel stifled going to the same place eveytime, then have him tell me he's not 'feeling' these photos. I even went out Sunday shooting non-car stuff just to try and get my creative juices flowing and see what I could come up with (See other thread for photos)

Cliffnotes:
Longtime client says he's not feeling recent photos and despite my requests, won't drive more than 1.5 miles from his house to a better location. I'm frustrated because with a bit more time and location flexibility think I could be more 'artisitic'.

Anyone else been there? If I'm the only one, maybe its time I rethink the game.

[John Thawley]

Assuming he calls you again, preface the discussion wiht his own words. "Hey, Bob... the last two times we've worked together, you've come back to me somewhat dissatisfied with the results. I know I can do a great job for you and truly want to make you please, but we really need to get the cars to better locations."

NOW here's the importnat part,. "Bob, I really need your help. Can we figure out a better time to shoot when we can have more time with the cars or get them to a better location. I'm happy to the work for you and want to give you my best... but I really need your help."

I think that puts the burden back on him to participate in helping you achieve HIS expectations.

JT

[Todd Corzett]

JT hits the nail on the head... if he isn't satisfied, then something needs to change. It sounds to me like he wants a Picasso, but only has time for a county-fair cartoon. I think finding out what he wants (standard ‘eBay’ shots, vs. something ‘artistic’), then explain what is required to get what he wants. If all he wants are eBay shots, then going down the street and shooting a few ‘quick’ shots is all he should expect. If artistic is what he wants, you can explain that artistic takes time and is often aided by location.

A question though... why does he feel they are not artistically satisfying? Can he explain it? Can he say why he liked the Jag shots? The more info you can get from him about what he likes and dislikes, the better the shots will be in his mind.

Now, to put something back onto you... have the locations/times scouted before hand. Shoot it with your car just to make sure everything is going to be good when he is there with the exotic... the first time for sure... make sure you are as prepared as possible. The last thing you want to do is get him interested in locations and longer shoots... just to spend the afternoon driving around looking for a good location. Now, I know you didn’t need to hear this... but I just wanted to make a point... do your homework, cross every ‘t’, and dot every ‘i’.

Another thing, you mentioned you shot some in front of his house... is it a nice place? Maybe you can ask him to park the car(s) in front of the house (little work for him) so you can spend more time shooting... maybe even let the sun go down and do some light painting or something... really push the artistic stuff, given that time wouldn’t be as much of an issue.

-Todd...

[Erik Anderson]

Assuming he calls you again, preface the discussion wiht his own words. "Hey, Bob... the last two times we've worked together, you've come back to me somewhat dissatisfied with the results. I know I can do a great job for you and truly want to make you please, but we really need to get the cars to better locations."

NOW here's the importnat part,. "Bob, I really need your help. Can we figure out a better time to shoot when we can have more time with the cars or get them to a better location. I'm happy to the work for you and want to give you my best... but I really need your help."

I think that puts the burden back on him to participate in helping you achieve HIS expectations.

JT

As always, you have a way of distilling an issue down to its essence. I've gone to him but perhaps I didn't explain it well enough or was as firm as I needed to be. He has a local reputation as being an owner that owns the car not to drive it, just to say that he does (or did). He drives to the affluent dinner spots to park it in front, and doesn't drive his cars for fun in fear that he'd get rock chips or ...GASP....dirt. I will try talking with him again and change my approach.

[Erik Anderson]

JT hits the nail on the head... if he isn't satisfied, then something needs to change. It sounds to me like he wants a Picasso, but only has time for a county-fair cartoon. I think finding out what he wants (standard ‘eBay’ shots, vs. something ‘artistic’), then explain what is required to get what he wants. If all he wants are eBay shots, then going down the street and shooting a few ‘quick’ shots is all he should expect. If artistic is what he wants, you can explain that artistic takes time and is often aided by location.


I -thought- we had what we were shooting with the other two. In fact, he was pretty blase about the 360. Then, when I didn't photo of the top of the headrest (?!) he was dissappointed. Same with the Diablo, which was at the parking lot, but with slighter better light than this weekend.

I clarified repeatedly what he wanted this weekend, and so far as I mentioned, he wasn't 'feeling' the Murci shots.



A question though... why does he feel they are not artistically satisfying? Can he explain it? Can he say why he liked the Jag shots? The more info you can get from him about what he likes and dislikes, the better the shots will be in his mind.


He can't explain it to me, because, I've asked. He says they don't hit him like my previous works did. The shots previous to this were on a busy city street with him parallel parked between cars. There is all sorts of background clutter with people, other cars, wires, etc, and he likes those better than the recent parking lot shots which, at least in some, I've been able to all but eliminate the horrid background.

For the life of me, I can't see what was so great about the jag shots. It was literally, squat, snap, squat, zoom, snap, squat, snap, backup snap, walk, snap walk, snap, walk, pop doors, shoot front seats, shoot dash, shoot back seats, shoot TVs, pop truck, shoot stereo, pack gear and drive off. They are of great eBay quality, but they are very much snapshots. I'm at a loss.


Now, to put something back onto you... have the locations/times scouted before hand. Shoot it with your car just to make sure everything is going to be good when he is there with the exotic... the first time for sure... make sure you are as prepared as possible. The last thing you want to do is get him interested in locations and longer shoots... just to spend the afternoon driving around looking for a good location. Now, I know you didn’t need to hear this... but I just wanted to make a point... do your homework, cross every ‘t’, and dot every ‘i’.


I've shot around town quite a bit, and have quite a few places picked out. If I can just drag him out to some of these, I can take car of the rest. Hell, in 20 minutes of driving yesterday, we found that abandoned farm (posted in Critique). It would make a HELL of a location. I figure that I can find someplace that's more suitable in less than 30 minutes anywhere in the city. I appreciate you reinterating the basics, just to make sure I have everything covered.


Another thing, you mentioned you shot some in front of his house... is it a nice place? Maybe you can ask him to park the car(s) in front of the house (little work for him) so you can spend more time shooting... maybe even let the sun go down and do some light painting or something... really push the artistic stuff, given that time wouldn’t be as much of an issue.


It's an unassuming house. One in which I would NEVER expect the garage to house (at one time) a Jag, a 360, and a Diablo). Most of his neighboorhood is pickemup trucks, Ford Taurus', and those go awful Grand Prix's (:p :D). It's really nothing spectacular, and certainly nothing that I envisioned when I drove there.

Time seems to always been an issue. The nearly two hours that I shot was the longest that I had since we met. I have in the past, taken photos while he's been in eating. It's a weird deal, but as you alluded to, he wants Picasso but only has time for a ballon animal.

I'll post a couple from each shoot to give you an idea of what I'm taking, maybe I'm just missing something!

[Todd Corzett]

maybe I'm just missing something!
The only thing I think you may be missing is the idea that 'the customer is always right'. While I don't buy that, you have to remember that HE is the one you have to make happy. Unfortunately, especially when working with clients, many of the qualities us photographers strive for (clean, non-distracting, interesting backgrounds... great light... etc.) mean absolutely nothing. I'm shocked when I see clients pick-out poorly cropped, lack of motion, 'cookie-cutter' shots... even when placed side-by-side to a similar, better executed shot in my mind. IMO, the key to a great business (note, not necessarily great photographs) is to get what a client wants.

Finding out what the client wants is often very hard... The limited amount of people photography I’ve done has really taught me about this... one of my models is very “I hate that shot” about everything. But, when I sit down and ask her to walk through what he likes and dislikes, it really isn’t “I hate everything about that shot”, but rather “I hate (insert thing that the photographer can’t change here)”. While most of the time it's stuff that I can't change... it puts things into my mind to watch-out for while shooting... an example being hand/foot position. The more shots I take, the more shots she looks at, the better my understanding becomes. Same deal with the cars... you learned he wanted shots of the headrests, so in the future you take those shots too. People have a hard time explaining why they do/don’t like something, but if you can get them to pick-out elements it helps... you can also ask questions being more specific like “do you like the busy street scene”.

One thing with the busy street scene... shoot long exposures... it will add some motion blur to the people walking around. You can also find locations that might have neon lights (while cliche, some people really like it). Shooting the car while he is doing something else (like eating dinner) will allow you time to play around, without him feeling like you are ‘wasting his time’. I don’t really know how much time you want to invest into this sort of thing (especially depending on the money aspect of life), but it would be a way to get more shots for him to look at and give feedback on.

I guess in the end, you may need to look beyond your ideas of a good photo based on being a photographer... and put yourself into the place of the client (who may care about totally different things).

-Todd...

[Jamie Holladay]

Maybe he just likes a busy background. I know that does not help you out any. Although I am not a pro photographer, what I have found that several of my friends like are those shots that have the cluttered & busy backgrounds. If the photos are technically sound and the client is happy with them and you are getting paid is that not all that matters?

[John Thawley]

If the photos are technically sound and the client is happy with them and you are getting paid is that not all that matters?

We also have a responsibility to educate the client. After all, if not us, then who?

Personally, I prefer the customer learn and know the difference between my work and junk. You have a responsibility to raise the bar.

JT

[Todd Corzett]

Personally, I prefer the customer learn and know the difference between my work and junk.
One man's trash is another man's treasure...

Sorry, just had to say it :D

-Todd...

[Jamie Holladay]

We also have a responsibility to educate the client. After all, if not us, then who?

Personally, I prefer the customer learn and know the difference between my work and junk. You have a responsibility to raise the bar.

JT
I agree with you JT. I see photos and have made photos that my friends think are awesome that I would not dare post here becase in your words they are junk. But if I may pose this question (and I hope I am not hijacking Erik's post) but if Eriks client likes busy backgrounds or parralle parked photos, should the client be turned down if he is not receiptive to suggestions? Or is the alternative to shoot it the photographer's way? A combination of both? Or is this a time to become somewhat creative as Todd suggested in his post with slower shutter speeds etc? I pose these questions not to be argumentative but to learn.

[Todd Corzett]

should the client be turned down if he is not receptive to suggestions? Or is the alternative to shoot it the photographer's way? A combination of both? Or is this a time to become somewhat creative?
I think if you take the job, you need to make the client happy. I was only giving JT a hard time about the trash comment... he is right, you need to educate the client. Often times people like what they see, until they see something better... show them what better really is. Now, some clients don't want better (either due to the time/cost, or other reasons), and that is when as a professional you need to decide what comes first... your artistic vision, or the business... Personally, I think there is a middle ground that can be reached... but if there can't be, you need to enjoy what you are doing... so maybe you need to work with other clients. It tends to be a trade-off... some people love the creative shots, but don’t want to provide the freedom to go get those sorts of shots. There are also those who decide that it’s not worth it to get creative shots (they don’t want to pay for what it takes to get them). Ah... the joys of business!

One real world example... The Champ Car World Series... hires photographers to be on nearly every corner of the track and to shoot photos of nearly every car, every lap. It is much more of a documentary, than something artistically driven. There are some people who have no problem with this sort of shooting (many of them are great photographers too)... but there are others, who can’t stand it. I find myself somewhere in-between... I can get, what I would define as, the ‘boring’ shots (they work nicely for safety shots), but I still want the freedom to play around a bit with more extreme/creative shots as well. While it works as a good business model, it can produce some very uninteresting (photographically speaking) images.

-Todd...

[Jacob Leveton]

One of my business teachers in school used to always tell us this - The customer is NOT always right, but the customer is ALWAYS the customer.

As long as they sign the check, then you have to appease them.

The shots previous to this were on a busy city street with him parallel parked between cars. There is all sorts of background clutter with people, other cars, wires, etc, and he likes those better than the recent parking lot shots which, at least in some, I've been able to all but eliminate the horrid background.

So he likes a shoot to be busy, you prefer simplicity. You have to work with that. one of my favorite shots in my portfolio is one where I specifically found a very busy location, and shot a model there, interacting with the background. It was cluttered, it was busy, but it worked. One of my favorite car photos of all time was shot in old town pasadena with a car in a back alley. There were a bunch of people eating at tables outside, a bunch of people walking by in the background, but there was one lady walking past the car in a loud business outfit with red heels, and she's looking over at the car (which is a dark red), and checking it out. It's busy, but the car / girl stand out. If that's what they want, then give it to them.

you have a steady client. Do what you can to keep him as a steady client (unless / until a better client comes along)

[John Thawley]

I agree with you JT. I see photos and have made photos that my friends think are awesome that I would not dare post here becase in your words they are junk. But if I may pose this question (and I hope I am not hijacking Erik's post) but if Eriks client likes busy backgrounds or parralle parked photos, should the client be turned down if he is not receiptive to suggestions? Or is the alternative to shoot it the photographer's way? A combination of both? Or is this a time to become somewhat creative as Todd suggested in his post with slower shutter speeds etc? I pose these questions not to be argumentative but to learn.

No problem.. I understand your question. And, I'm not going to sit here and make it like "to hell with the client." There are obviously a lot of moving parts to the relationship. BUT... at the end of the day, I want to be hired for my skills. I want someone to hire me because they WANT what I provide.

Some people provide a camera and the ability to take orders and push the button.

Do I collaborate with the client in order to find a solution that fills their needs? Absolutely. But... in the end... what is out there is my work. And if I want more clients to seek me out based on my work, then what I put out their better represent what I do.

You can't go to a new client and say.... "yes, I did this work for so and so... but don't mind this because they did that... and don't mind that, because I changed if for the client..." and so on. I want to say "this is my work, this what I represent."

Finally... if I'm just going to do whatever a client wants... someone else will come along and do it for a lower price. And the beat goes on. :)

JT

[John Jovic]

Do you want the money or job satisfaction?

If you want the money then do exactly as the customer asks, until the customer realises that he can take his own crappy pictures and buys a point and shoot. Then he can take them in his own driveway!

If you want job satisfaction than get a better customer, one who appreciates your own style of shooting.

JJ

[Erik Anderson]

The only thing I think you may be missing is the idea that 'the customer is always right'. IMO, the key to a great business (note, not necessarily great photographs) is to get what a client wants.


Both good points. I do realize that he's 'right' and that I need to provide him with what he's come to expect from me. I'm just trying to figure out why the seemingly 'worse' shots are getting more rave reviews than the 'better' shots (personal perception)


One thing with the busy street scene... shoot long exposures... it will add some motion blur to the people walking around. You can also find locations that might have neon lights (while cliche, some people really like it). Shooting the car while he is doing something else (like eating dinner) will allow you time to play around, without him feeling like you are ‘wasting his time’. I don’t really know how much time you want to invest into this sort of thing (especially depending on the money aspect of life), but it would be a way to get more shots for him to look at and give feedback on.


All good points. I do have several longer exposure shots, but I could only manage a couple seconds each. As I mentioned, I'm shooting him parallel parked which means I'm actually shooting from across the street to get the drivers side shot! :) I did hop out in the middle of traffic a few times, to get some shots.:rolleyes: :p

[Erik Anderson]

I'm pleased to announce that my latest batch of samples for him were met with resounding approval. I did email and talk with him about what was missing from the current shots, and although he didn't provide a dissertation, he gave me enough comments and ideas that I was able to pull out three and edit them to the standards that he approved of. I like the photos as well, so in the end it's a win-win. I learned a bit more about my client and how to take criticism and I produced some images that everyone enjoyed!