Surely I'm not the only one who deals with this type.......

[Erik Anderson]

I had a request to use one image in a give-away brochure that promotes a regional racing series. In a gesture of goodwill, I was prepared to allow the use of one image in exchange for advertisement in the brochure and on the racing series site. This is the reply I received.

I would not be able to negotiate a deal with the xxxxxxxxx the way you would want. They do not recognize photographers with individual pics that are used in the program. The only phtographer that Is acknowledged is their paid photographer xxxxxxxxxx. I will just not use the picture you took of my car at xxxxxx. I will use a different picture from another photographer that is out at xxxxxxxx and does not care what I do with his pictures that I purchased. Sorry this didn't work out.

Adam
xxxxxxxxx Racing

I thought the last bolded sentence was an obvious shot across the bow. It's no skin off my teeth, it just reinforces what seems to be the prominent theory and feelings among the general public 'Your photo is already created so it should be free to me. Besides, it didn't cost you anything to make it. P.S. Their regular photographer and I have collaborated several times on projects.

Surely, I'm not the only one with 'customers' like this.!

[John Thawley]

I had a request to use one image in a give-away brochure that promotes a regional racing series. In a gesture of goodwill, I was prepared to allow the use of one image in exchange for advertisement in the brochure and on the racing series site. This is the reply I received.



I thought the last bolded sentence was an obvious shot across the bow. It's no skin off my teeth, it just reinforces what seems to be the prominent theory and feelings among the general public 'Your photo is already created so it should be free to me. Besides, it didn't cost you anything to make it. P.S. Their regular photographer and I have collaborated several times on projects.

Surely, I'm not the only one with 'customers' like this.!

Customer?

Anyway, your "beef" should be with the other photographer. It's like the old saying "don't me mad at the telemarketer that calls during dinner. Be mad at the person who answered and bought something."

The other photographer is the weak link here.

JT

[John Jovic]

Eric

If they are happy with the free crap that they get then you are wasting your time with them in the first place. Do your self a favour and forget about them altogether. Don't waste any more time with them but make sure that they know that you are still there for them if they need more work done in the future, but on your terms.

Don't hold your breath...

JJ

[Erik Anderson]

Customer?

Anyway, your "beef" should be with the other photographer. It's like the old saying "don't me mad at the telemarketer that calls during dinner. Be mad at the person who answered and bought something."

The other photographer is the weak link here.

JT

I put customer in quotes to represent a bit of sarcasm, I don't consider them among my real customers.:) There are three photogs involved. One is me, the second is Chris their 'official' photographer, the third is some other guy who apparently was at the same event.

I agree that it's the other photographer 'fault' here, but I have yet to find a shortage of 'photographers' willing to give their photos up in exchange for nothing more than a photo credit. I'm an advocate of educating my customers on the products, quality, and professionalism that I can provide, but with DSLR prices dropping by the hour, everyone is a photographer wanting to see their name on a glossy page, even for free.

[Erik Anderson]

Eric

If they are happy with the free crap that they get then you are wasting your time with them in the first place. Do your self a favour and forget about them altogether. Don't waste any more time with them but make sure that they know that you are still there for them if they need more work done in the future, but on your terms.

Don't hold your breath...

JJ

Great advice, I'll take it! :)

[Steve Demmitt]

that last sentence is a slap in the face
obviously they have no respect for you or what you do
and neither does the other photographer

If I personally replied to that it wouldn't be pretty
and I know better then that

just move on

[Dennis Murray]

It's really difficult dealing with the businesses that traffic at the lower levels of racing.

There are several nationally known prep shops that operate from the southeast, but they seem satisfied with whatever their source of photos is and isn't looking to use race images. How do you compete against someone doing it themselves or getting it for free? You don't.

I've come to realize the market is really limited for sales to drivers and teams in amateur series. The difference for them between what the guy giving away pictures on the forum they read and what anyone charging for prints does is pretty small.

[John Jovic]

I've come to realize the market is really limited for sales to drivers and teams in amateur series. The difference for them between what the guy giving away pictures on the forum they read and what anyone charging for prints does is pretty small.

I think you're on to something.

A friend of mine who shoots heaps of drag racing and regularly sells prints at the track to owners tells me that the big teams are not the big spenders. The big spenders are the guys who have travelled a long way to get a few runs at the track and want remember the moment. They might be driving the worst piece of crap on the track at the time but it has no relevance to how much they'll spend to get some pics to remember the day.

JJ

[John Thawley]

I think you're on to something.

A friend of mine who shoots heaps of drag racing and regularly sells prints at the track to owners tells me that the big teams are not the big spenders. The big spenders are the guys who have travelled a long way to get a few runs at the track and want remember the moment. They might be driving the worst piece of crap on the track at the time but it has no relevance to how much they'll spend to get some pics to remember the day.

JJ


I've noticed over the years that you'll often see a "regional" racer will participate in "the big show" when SPEED World Challenge and/or the old Trans-Am series would come to twon. Especially places like Road America or Mid-Ohio where theres a big regional racing population. I've always made the comment to Jimmy Sykes as we watch the poor guy delegated to becoming a back marker, "that's probably the only guy here that'll buy a photo of himself... and we're not even shooting him."

It's not unsual to get calls after a race from drivers that ran in the back of the field or guys that only run a couple of races.

Something to think about.

[Erik Anderson]

Funny addition:

I just got a call from the race team owner. He said to let him know how much it would cost for permission to put in the mag, all the other photos are crap compared to mine. HA!

On a bonus note, I turned down a second shooter position for a wedding when offered a stupid ridiculous low price. The guy said fine and we parted ways amicably. he also called back and asked what I wanted.

If it wasn't for my current 80+ hour workweek, I'd be completely pleased with myself! :)

[Todd Corzett]

I just got a call from the race team owner. He said to let him know how much it would cost for permission to put in the mag, all the other photos are crap compared to mine.
IMO, while I'm not a fan of people underselling themselves, the quality will ultimately be the deciding factor. If the client wants great images, they need to pay for the photographers who can get them. If they want to pay less, for lower quality, then you really don't want to be working for them in the first place.

-Todd...

[Dennis Murray]

I've noticed over the years that you'll often see a "regional" racer will participate in "the big show" when SPEED World Challenge and/or the old Trans-Am series would come to twon. Especially places like Road America or Mid-Ohio where theres a big regional racing population. I've always made the comment to Jimmy Sykes as we watch the poor guy delegated to becoming a back marker, "that's probably the only guy here that'll buy a photo of himself... and we're not even shooting him."

It's not unsual to get calls after a race from drivers that ran in the back of the field or guys that only run a couple of races.

Something to think about.

Very true...I'm sure the "gentleman driver" that you see pop up for a race or two in ALMS, GA, World Challenge, and GA Cup (or whatever the series is called now) and I'll throw GT3 Cup in as well could be a very good customer...but it would probably take a different approach on the business side.

I'm not smart enough to figure out exactly what that approach is at this point though.

It also plays into my coverage of SCCA racing...there is one event that sells better than all of the others combined, and mostly to drivers coming more than 500 miles. There's enough of a "big event" aura associated with it.

[Mark Scheuern]

I've noticed over the years that you'll often see a "regional" racer will participate in "the big show" when SPEED World Challenge and/or the old Trans-Am series would come to twon. Especially places like Road America or Mid-Ohio where theres a big regional racing population. I've always made the comment to Jimmy Sykes as we watch the poor guy delegated to becoming a back marker, "that's probably the only guy here that'll buy a photo of himself... and we're not even shooting him."


This raises a question. To what extent, if at all, do you think about potential print sales while shooting an event primarily for publication or for a client? I've found that it takes a different sort of mindset to shoot as an event photographer and it's less enjoyable than thinking more photojournalistically, trying to get interesting shots of interesting stuff rather than safe shots of everything in sight. I can deal with less fun, though, if it means more money.

I've gotten the occasional call or email from someone who has seen my shots from a race and wonders if I have anything of them. Often the answer is no and I think it's almost always because, well, I didn't think they were interesting enough to shoot. I hate to disappoint them and lose what would have been a sale. OTOH, the few times I've tried to do an event-type shoot--at a club race or a school or whatever--I've had really mixed results, which leads me to believe that's not exactly the road to consistantly good money, either.

[Todd Corzett]

To what extent, if at all, do you think about potential print sales while shooting an event primarily for publication or for a client?
I don't think about print sales at all when shooting... that being said, I try to get at least one shot of every car with 'conservative' settings that I know would be useable for web/print if I needed to. Especially at the beginning of a weekend (the first few sessions) or a race I'll try to get shots just incase someone gets taken-out and there isn't an opportunity to get shots later.

It is somewhat convenient that when first shooting an event I tend to need to 'get back into the grove' before being able to get too artistic. These shots tend to work-out nicely for the safety shots. As the weekend/race goes on I'll stop shooting as many photos of the back markers and concentrate on the 'newsworthy' cars (or the ones I want to shoot). Some shots, like head-on ones, I will continue to shoot the 'other guys'... but when you're trying to get a slow shutter speed pan where you pick one car out of a pack, I'll tend to pick the big-name cars.

Personally, I can’t stand trackday shooting. Seriously, I don’t know what you’d have to pay me to go shoot that stuff. If people were interested in artistic stuff, that would make it better... but I just can’t stand the ‘cookie cutter’ stuff that many people are willing to pay for (and therefore expect).

-Todd...

[Mark Scheuern]

Thanks, Todd. I think I feel pretty much the same way and approach a weekend of shooting like that, too. Unless I can somehow become convinced that it's worth my while, I'm not overly enthused about doing trackday stuff. I remember how thrilled I was when I did a BMW school event and a guy with an M5 told me "maybe I'll buy a shot but it'll be from whoever is cheapest." You're right: with few exceptions, they just don't seem to care. I'd be a bit more tempted if there was money in it but I haven't seen that (though I'm willing to concede that some of that might be due to my marketing skills). Not that I'm raking in the cash doing the magazine stuff, either, but at least it's more satisfying.

[Chris Clark]

A friend of mine who shoots heaps of drag racing and regularly sells prints at the track to owners tells me that the big teams are not the big spenders. The big spenders are the guys who have travelled a long way to get a few runs at the track and want remember the moment. They might be driving the worst piece of crap on the track at the time but it has no relevance to how much they'll spend to get some pics to remember the day.

JJ


That would be my experience as well. I had a guy in a $100,000+ car balk at my pricing and chose not to purchase anything. Meanwhile, the guy running the $4000 Honda bought 2 of everything.:)

What I find strange is I still have people ordering prints of an event I shot back in September. I had a mad rush of clients in the few weeks after the event, then it dried up for a month or so, then picked up again, and I'd be willing to bet I've sold as much in Jan/Feb of that event as I did in Sept/Oct... :confused:

As far as shooting track days: I plan on shooting as many as I possibly can this year. I look at it as a place to practice, practice, practice, try new things and experiment. If I sell some prints, great! But thats not my primary objective going in.

-chris

[John Thawley]

This raises a question. To what extent, if at all, do you think about potential print sales while shooting an event primarily for publication or for a client? I've found that it takes a different sort of mindset to shoot as an event photographer and it's less enjoyable than thinking more photojournalistically, trying to get interesting shots of interesting stuff rather than safe shots of everything in sight. I can deal with less fun, though, if it means more money.

I've gotten the occasional call or email from someone who has seen my shots from a race and wonders if I have anything of them. Often the answer is no and I think it's almost always because, well, I didn't think they were interesting enough to shoot. I hate to disappoint them and lose what would have been a sale. OTOH, the few times I've tried to do an event-type shoot--at a club race or a school or whatever--I've had really mixed results, which leads me to believe that's not exactly the road to consistantly good money, either.

I find I shoot more successfully when I'm shooting specific teams. There's a focus (no pun) for each session and it usually spills over to the rest of my shooting. I do find that I'll work toward getting the basics tucked away early in the week just to be sure... then I go nuts. :) Oddly, though, when the weekend is over, I don't rely alot on the basics I shot earlier.

It's probably like anything else, if you build in your safety net well in advance, you probably won't end up needing it.

JT

[Jacob Leveton]

That would be my experience as well. I had a guy in a $100,000+ car balk at my pricing and chose not to purchase anything. Meanwhile, the guy running the $4000 Honda bought 2 of everything.:)

What I find strange is I still have people ordering prints of an event I shot back in September. I had a mad rush of clients in the few weeks after the event, then it dried up for a month or so, then picked up again, and I'd be willing to bet I've sold as much in Jan/Feb of that event as I did in Sept/Oct... :confused:

As far as shooting track days: I plan on shooting as many as I possibly can this year. I look at it as a place to practice, practice, practice, try new things and experiment. If I sell some prints, great! But thats not my primary objective going in.

-chris

i have a feeling that has to do with sponsors for the '07 season. securing photos in the moment right after a track event is one thing, but come dec / jan, you have to send the best shots to the sponsors to keep them happy / impress them and get them to sign for the next year

[Chris Clark]

i have a feeling that has to do with sponsors for the '07 season. securing photos in the moment right after a track event is one thing, but come dec / jan, you have to send the best shots to the sponsors to keep them happy / impress them and get them to sign for the next year


You know what? You are probably right,,,,:)